Mesan Alignment post war

tlb wrote:As Theemile and Munroburton state the trauma was not just specific to a small part of the SEM, it is part of the origin story that any nation would prize and celebrate.

Sigs wrote:Celebrate yes, get into a major war no. If they find the MA restricted to a single planet, or at most a secondary nation(RF) of a couple of dozen systems then they might do so, but if the MA is thousands of LY away with a nation of 20-40 systems that are heavily industrialized? With a powerful navy? There is a difference between honoring and going to war for decades to avenge this.

If it is really your position that the Mesan Alignment is going to forget about the Renaissance Factor and move a thousand light years away; then you are probably correct that no one is going to undertake a war against them, no matter what their strength or intentions.

But in this scenario, how did anyone in the SEM find out what and where they are? It is easier to imagine finding Darius than to imagine knowing anything about a settlement that far away.

So if that is the future you expect; then there will be no war, nor even any interaction, between the future SEM and this future Detweiler outpost.

tlb wrote:As Theemile and Munroburton state the trauma was not just specific to a small part of the SEM, it is part of the origin story that any nation would prize and celebrate. For the SEM that origin story will always contain the perfidy of the Mesan Alignment that pushed nations into war and resulted in the Grand Alliance.

It might be even bigger than that. The end of UH was hinting at a bigger union with Haven and that only came about because of the perfidy.

Uncompromising Honor, March 1923 Post Diaspora wrote:"So, what she and I are going to do in... oh, a T-yer or so, is propose a sort of...federated association, I suppose you'd call it, between Manticore and Haven. We're still at an early enough stage no one's come up with anything to call it yet, but basically, we'd amend both constitutions to get reciprocal citizenship."

"'Reciprocal citizenship'?" Honor repeated.

"In essence, any citizen of the Republic would be a citizen of the Star Empire, and any citizen of the Star Empire would be a citizen of the Republic. Where they voted and where they paid taxes would depend on upon the star nation in which they currently resided." Elizabeth smiled as Honor's eyes widened. "Oh, it'll be more complicated than that, I'm surer, but that's the basic platform we're after. We'll be looking at building deliberate economic ties, as well, and of course Havenite businesses and individuals will get the same Junction rates as Manticorans do. As I said, I've talked about it with Benjamin a bit, too. Grayson intends to stay independent, for reasons I fully understand, but he's inclined to think the Graysons may be ready for the same kind of relationship by the time Eloise and I actually have the bits and pieces glued into place."

[...]

"Well, I wasn't going to cram it at you," Elizabeth told her. "But one of the most essential elements will be keeping our military establishments on the same page. Especially with the Alignment still out there somewhere."

(emphasis mine)

Brigade XO wrote:If what the next round of books is going to have as primary charaecters are Honor's children then you are looking at probably 20 (though 50 would be better for the Alignment) years of resetting the board to crush Beowulf (and that is their plan) and create a cadre of non-Aignment people who are spreading their ideas through hundreds if not thousands of systems.

It's not. RFC has dropped enough hints that there will be no time jump, at least not in the next couple of books.

tlb wrote:If it is really your position that the Mesan Alignment is going to forget about the Renaissance Factor and move a thousand light years away; then you are probably correct that no one is going to undertake a war against them, no matter what their strength or intentions.

Based on their actions this will not happen, but to me this is the option with most chances of long term success, and by success I mean a multitude of potential end goals. They can build their new nation, build a large navy and come back to the rest of humanity and conquer them, they could build a nation, build a strong navy and open their borders to the rest of humanity and show them stability and the strength of their way, or they can close themselves off and never reconnect with humanity and just keep on expanding. Problem is that the leadership of the MA is more focused on rubbing it in the face of the galaxy generally and Beowulf specifically how awesome they are, and they don't have the inclination or patience to start over and work their whole lives building a foundation knowing that they will never see it come to fruition.

But in this scenario, how did anyone in the SEM find out what and where they are? It is easier to imagine finding Darius than to imagine knowing anything about a settlement that far away.

That's my question, what happens if they pack it in and leave, even if the SEM traces the MA back to Darius and the RF what happens if they know the MA is still out there but for the next 500+ years they find no more clues. What do they do? Do they invest massive amount of money, people and resources scouting the galaxy for potential MA settlements? Do they maintain a very powerful navy for the day that the MA comes back? How does the SEM keep the nation focused on the MA if in 500 years they will be one generation removed from the events of OB and the Leadership that the SKM had during the war is long dead?

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:Admittedly, I never considered how drastically the government may change, except offhandedly.

However, if that is so, then you must apply the notion across the board and expect the Treecats would also get equal representation. And there is NO way the Cats will ever... forget, or allow anyone else to.

Besides, surely there are memorials, statues, streets and more named after those lost at the hands of Oyster Bay.

Even if you give the cats anything in the Imperial Parliament, it would be negligible because in 50 years it is stipulated that the Imperial Parliament would be based on population and that would be at most 1 member IF they are give the right.

True, and poignant. However, I would imagine it'd only take one cat to make sure nobody forgets. And if that one Cat is a Memory Singer, she'll be singing daily. Even if there is NO representation, it still won't matter because the Cats would be spread about the population even more via bonding and they will not forget or let anyone else forget. Even IF the unfair and arguably biased rules of representation based on population will apply to the Cats.

Besides, Grayson and the SEM will always be joined at the hip. And Grayson will never forget, OR be unwilling to go to war alone. If need be, Grayson will lead the pack and step up in the place of any lacking government presently occupying the SEM. It isn't like they haven't had to be the more responsible of the two before. No matter what High Ridge-like government is running the "Occupied SEM." LOL

1. Can you imagine Grayson trying to convince the SEM that a sinister enemy has returned? Can we say "deja vu, foot with the same shoe?"

2. How humourous it would be if a single Treecat in Parliament is signing like crazy trying to break a gridlock and wake up the sleeping masses to listen to Grayson.

We must also consider that if Elizabeth is still at the helm it is all a moot point. She's bonded, and she will never forget her debt OR obligation to the Cats.


Aside: Honor will definitely never forget her promise, debt, or responsibility to the Cats. She can start a war all on her own and everyone will follow her into the maelstrom again. She'll take on the MA alone in her tricked out SD with the Protector's Own backing her up. So, if the MA does drop off the face of the known galaxies indefinitely, indefinitely better be a very long time.

But we all know the MA won't stay hidden, or they would never have come out of the closet in the first place.

Plus, time is working against them as well, trying to keep everyone fired up to their now very aging cause. Especially since the original instigators carrying the torch and the hatred will be long dead.

At any rate, I understand what you're asking Sig's. As we all, you don't think it will happen either. This is simply a what if? And it's an important what if that needed asking. As I said upstream, indefinitely doesn't have to be that long at all to benefit the MA via complacency of it's enemies.

Sigs wrote:

munroburton wrote:The same forces which caused those massacres in Manticore and Beowulf also tried to sabotage the Quadrant's annexation. They did this by sponsoring/creating terrorist organisations on various Quadrant planets and when that failed, tossed Byng & Crandall into their space. Some of the Talbotters will not forget that.

And you think people in Talbott are not used to this? How many of them lived with the shadow of Frontier Security over them? They knew the League was coming, and besides, how many of Talbotts citizens who were adults and went through this would be alive by then? Majority of Talbott doesn't even have prolong, so the people who remember and care would be pitifully small. Chances are, in a few decades to a century there would be so many minor and major problems in the SEM that revenge on the MA would not be a realistic option unless they were still a one system polity.

Some might well have been resigned to the prospects of OFS conquest until Manticore intervened. I do not understand why you think they would not bear a measure of gratitude towards the SEM for averting that fate, even if they were "used" to it.

Prolong is becoming widely available in the Quadrant - again, as a result of annexation. All those <25 year olds who thought they would end up an OFS helot and die of geriatric diseases in their 80s or 90s, who are going to dominate the Talbott political theater when their parents, slightly elder siblings and friends do die off?

They're going to object when/if Manticore finds the assholes who tried to keep them heading into OFS' arms?

No, I think in order to achieve the effect you want, the MAlign would have to wait at least two centuries, probably three.

The Alignment has a goal of "improving" the human race though genetic manipulation and has been spending centuries doing experiments. Those experiments have both been in secret and in public.
We now have the Star Lines and it is members of those varioius lines that comprise the leadership of the Alignment and thier major poxy operatons (The RF and moles in other systems) The Alignment has been operationg in the shadows by choice and design.

Recall that Detweiler and his acolytes moved to Mesa specificaly to get out from under the resetrictions of the Beowulf Code and advance the research into creating the superior humans who would -by right of intelegence and their own wisdom and philosophy take over and lead humanity. Mesa, as it has been shown in the series whenever it has come up, is best known for two things.

One is Manpower. Manpower is at best a very cynical expression of genetic manipulation for "profit" and the production and sale of genetic slaves crafted to specification for various "jobs" Some of that is adaptation to enviornments hostile or at least difficut for humans and a lot of it is outright designing humans and their sale for almost any purpose you can imagine. It is ONE company which is a major if not the major owner of the system.
The other is with various TransStellars of repugnant reputations which will do just about anything to make a profit and acrew power. Detweiler was very careful to use both to cover the real intent and work of the Alignment which is that whole uplift of humanity in terms both of actual physical changes/inhancements and to set the Star Lines overe humanity but at a remove such that nobody is given a target which can sucessfully attack. Along with the genetics manipulation there is a compleat moral and ethical system. Call it a cynical strangulation of the Beowulf Code.

The Alignment is shown to think in terms of itself and "normals" It has a deeply entrenched Cast system with the Alpha's at the summit layer. Normals are not even cattle for them to be used. They are at best a source of raw materials and expendable.

Manpower and Mesa provided the infrastructure for genetic reseaerch using their creation of genetic slaves as a cover. Manpower and Mesa were the target being set up along with the initial place to continue the Detwiler research.

The RF is anti-slavery. Apparently they are also not violating the Beowulf Code. Not in open practice, but they are pushing the edges of the envelope. As with Mesa, the original RF systems are actualy controlled by Star Lines. We don't see any blatant things like Albrects's "sons" being adaped clones but the Star Lines are in control.
Darius is also being presented as a non-slave world. The difference- the general population of Darius doesn't know they are slaves. They are what the Seccies on Mesa were supposed to be- lower classes of citizens. Very carefully designed lower classes who are taught and infused from birth (or decanting if you will) that their place is in the service of the Alignment.

So, no, The Alignmente is just getting a slower start on the pushing of it's infection on the rest of humanity. They do have morals and ethics but only from the point of view that what they want is what is right for everybody else and all genetic manipulation is good. The serf is a serf and should be a serf- is made to be a serf and the Alignment will assure that this continues. With the Alphas at the pinnacle of power, education, justice, philosophy. Creation of the Natural Order as invisioned by Detweiler.

How could that possibly be wrong.....

Late to the discussion, but have enjoyed reading all the threads. With RFC obviously being the ultimate arbiter of what happens next of course, here's where I think the breadcrumb trail causes the rest of the 600 year plan to fall apart.

First. there are enough alpha lines both within and without "the onion" who seem to still have that human frailty known as a conscience. One of them (O'Hanaran) is primed to do maximum damage outside because she's also in the business of publication. Hmmm... what if our dear reporter friend -- who likely does NOT have a suicide protocol built in -- gets within range of a treecat and does NOT drop dead>

Within the onion... is Zack McBride going to stay loyal, or what if one of the three clones recognize that dear ole papa was bats--t crazy there at the end, and maybe we went too far with the whole "blow up orbital habitats" thing... and now the unholy trio aren't unified but become competitive in the "there can be only one..." mold, but they've all been in different departments, so to say. Does Papa's vision hold together or... ?

Galactically, let's assume that HH, Grayson, Beowulf, and the treecats... pointed in the right direction by the next trio of Cachat, Zilwicki, and Winton, R... + Harahap... get wind of and arrive in one of the weaker RF systems where one of the"twelve heads" does know about the source of the MAlign... and said fleet puts an "fleet of SD(P) size pulsars to said politico(s) ear and says "spill the beans"... [By the way, I recognize the Andermani and Haven, plus the Maya sector as full partners in the hunt and GA... but I listed the entities with the biggest reasons for system scale revenge because of Oyster Bay and whatever we call Beowulf's tragedy]

And finally, with Palane on Mesa and everyone knowing that those left on Mesa weren't in on or complicit in all of the genetic slavery shenanighans, do you really think that Torch isn't going to have their day to play?

It is vastly unlikly that Queen Berry or Thandi or even Jeremy X is going to advocate anyone connected with Torch (or the Audubon Ballroom) from showing up and eliminating people from Manpower and related companies. And Mile isn't about to alow it either.

There may, however, be a lot of creative persuasion.

Well, the obvious trick is to lay a bunch of clues that would lead some arrogant buch of neo-barbarians to attack member of the SL. Not that they woukd do anything like this...