Mesan Alignment post war

Brigade XO wrote:The Alignment has Darius and a private wormhole network.

They have the RF and it is growing. The RF was designed to start the process of building an alternative to the SL when it disintegrated under the Detweiler plan but that didn't go so well and now there is the GA (which is it's own set of challanges) a vastly larger SEM and we guess we will see a SL 2.0 that will not be sheading quite so many systems.

But the RF is there and it will be spreading the basic philosophy of the Alignment, fairly quietly at first and preparing the ground for a groundswell of movement to eclipse the Beowulf Code and other things without outright war. The plan was for the League to shatter and it had to get to that position by something like what it actualy did set in motion with Opperation Buccanear and destroy what was left of it's prestige and any moral voice. That was SUPPOSED to have also crused or at least equaly damage the earlier victorious PRH as it slid down the path the Alignment pushed it on.

But the problem is that the RF has to be very carefully but also obviously staying away from the MA and their philosophy because the second they draw the attention of the GA, its game over. They are already on the radar of the GA if for the speed of their unification, that may not be all that sucpisious but the GA will be investigating all such new nations if for no other reason than they don't really know what the MA plan was.

All of that (the RF leading the buildout of the Alignments moral and ethical takeover) can still happen but the counterwelight of a GA and allied powers will be there. They will have to recognize what is happening to even think about being able to start doing anything about it.

The counterweight would be the League and the GA unless something unfortunate happens to the Ghost Hunters. I think that the new League government would lay out all the skeletons from all the closets, make a case on what happened and why it happened so that they can move forward with rebuilding the SL, and part of that is exposing the very obvious other guys in this equation.

If what the next round of books is going to have as primary charaecters are Honor's children then you are looking at probably 20 (though 50 would be better for the Alignment) years of resetting the board to crush Beowulf (and that is their plan) and create a cadre of non-Aignment people who are spreading their ideas through hundreds if not thousands of systems.

If the SL comes on board with the GA in agreement that the MA is in fact real thing then things get mighty complicated for the ideology of the MA and even more complicated for the RF if they start pushing that ideology. Even a much reduced SL would still consist of hundreds or even more than 1,000 systems, if they point the finger at the MA for what happened and fix the corruption in their system they can, united with the GA counter anything the RF tries to do.

tlb wrote:Without a doubt, there will be a day of remembrance set aside. But it is not just the Yawata Strike that will keep memories alive; it is also the murder of about 40 million with the destruction of the Beowulf orbitals, because of the close ties between Manticore and Beowulf. Even if the fervor of the hunt dies out because of a lack of clues; there will still be changes to perimeter security and building codes required by the perceived failures to prevent deaths.

Perhaps in several generations, if the Malign is absent, you are correct that focus will shift by everyone from their threat. But when the Malign does reemerge, if people recognize them as that forgotten threat, then all the old feelings will revive in full. However if the connection is not made, then they are just be a new problem for a new day.

Problem with that is in 50 years Talbot would be fully incorporated into the SEM and the SEM government would reflect that as well. Likely Silesia is on the same or similar timetable, which means that in 60 years the make up of the SEM Parliament will be significantly different when compared to the make up of Parliament in 1923. With the loosening of the finances from the House of Lords, and likelihood that the new member systems will also be joining the house of lords or the house of lords and house of Commons will be relegated to SKM government, while the imperial government would be the national government in control of the military, national budget etc...

The SKM would be province, it would be a prosperous province but just a province none the less and just like any other state/province they wont be able to unilaterally make decisions for the imperial government when they have 15-20% of the population. That changes a little big if Beowulf and Hypatia join the Empire but not enough to matter. When 20% of the government was directly affected by something 60,70 or 100 years ago, chances are that it will carry some weight but the 80% not directly affected will have a different attitude and feeling towards OB and Beowulf Strike.

Sigs wrote:

tlb wrote:Without a doubt, there will be a day of remembrance set aside. But it is not just the Yawata Strike that will keep memories alive; it is also the murder of about 40 million with the destruction of the Beowulf orbitals, because of the close ties between Manticore and Beowulf. Even if the fervor of the hunt dies out because of a lack of clues; there will still be changes to perimeter security and building codes required by the perceived failures to prevent deaths.

Perhaps in several generations, if the Malign is absent, you are correct that focus will shift by everyone from their threat. But when the Malign does reemerge, if people recognize them as that forgotten threat, then all the old feelings will revive in full. However if the connection is not made, then they are just be a new problem for a new day.

Problem with that is in 50 years Talbot would be fully incorporated into the SEM and the SEM government would reflect that as well. Likely Silesia is on the same or similar timetable, which means that in 60 years the make up of the SEM Parliament will be significantly different when compared to the make up of Parliament in 1923. With the loosening of the finances from the House of Lords, and likelihood that the new member systems will also be joining the house of lords or the house of lords and house of Commons will be relegated to SKM government, while the imperial government would be the national government in control of the military, national budget etc...

The SKM would be province, it would be a prosperous province but just a province none the less and just like any other state/province they wont be able to unilaterally make decisions for the imperial government when they have 15-20% of the population. That changes a little big if Beowulf and Hypatia join the Empire but not enough to matter. When 20% of the government was directly affected by something 60,70 or 100 years ago, chances are that it will carry some weight but the 80% not directly affected will have a different attitude and feeling towards OB and Beowulf Strike.

On the other hand, in 50 years the Average working Talbotter will have always known membership in the SKM and it's values/culture, while the average Old-SKM (or Hypathian/Beowulfian) will still have adult memories of the Malign Attrocities. It will not be in everyone's foreminds (anymore than 9-11 is a daily thought in most Americans these days), but it will still be part of culture.

Sigs wrote:

tlb wrote:Without a doubt, there will be a day of remembrance set aside. But it is not just the Yawata Strike that will keep memories alive; it is also the murder of about 40 million with the destruction of the Beowulf orbitals, because of the close ties between Manticore and Beowulf. Even if the fervor of the hunt dies out because of a lack of clues; there will still be changes to perimeter security and building codes required by the perceived failures to prevent deaths.

Perhaps in several generations, if the Malign is absent, you are correct that focus will shift by everyone from their threat. But when the Malign does reemerge, if people recognize them as that forgotten threat, then all the old feelings will revive in full. However if the connection is not made, then they are just be a new problem for a new day.

Problem with that is in 50 years Talbot would be fully incorporated into the SEM and the SEM government would reflect that as well. Likely Silesia is on the same or similar timetable, which means that in 60 years the make up of the SEM Parliament will be significantly different when compared to the make up of Parliament in 1923. With the loosening of the finances from the House of Lords, and likelihood that the new member systems will also be joining the house of lords or the house of lords and house of Commons will be relegated to SKM government, while the imperial government would be the national government in control of the military, national budget etc...

The SKM would be province, it would be a prosperous province but just a province none the less and just like any other state/province they wont be able to unilaterally make decisions for the imperial government when they have 15-20% of the population. That changes a little big if Beowulf and Hypatia join the Empire but not enough to matter. When 20% of the government was directly affected by something 60,70 or 100 years ago, chances are that it will carry some weight but the 80% not directly affected will have a different attitude and feeling towards OB and Beowulf Strike.

The same forces which caused those massacres in Manticore and Beowulf also tried to sabotage the Quadrant's annexation. They did this by sponsoring/creating terrorist organisations on various Quadrant planets and when that failed, tossed Byng & Crandall into their space. Some of the Talbotters will not forget that.

tlb wrote:Without a doubt, there will be a day of remembrance set aside. But it is not just the Yawata Strike that will keep memories alive; it is also the murder of about 40 million with the destruction of the Beowulf orbitals, because of the close ties between Manticore and Beowulf. Even if the fervor of the hunt dies out because of a lack of clues; there will still be changes to perimeter security and building codes required by the perceived failures to prevent deaths.

Perhaps in several generations, if the Malign is absent, you are correct that focus will shift by everyone from their threat. But when the Malign does reemerge, if people recognize them as that forgotten threat, then all the old feelings will revive in full. However if the connection is not made, then they are just be a new problem for a new day.

Sigs wrote:Problem with that is in 50 years Talbot would be fully incorporated into the SEM and the SEM government would reflect that as well. Likely Silesia is on the same or similar timetable, which means that in 60 years the make up of the SEM Parliament will be significantly different when compared to the make up of Parliament in 1923. With the loosening of the finances from the House of Lords, and likelihood that the new member systems will also be joining the house of lords or the house of lords and house of Commons will be relegated to SKM government, while the imperial government would be the national government in control of the military, national budget etc...

The SKM would be province, it would be a prosperous province but just a province none the less and just like any other state/province they wont be able to unilaterally make decisions for the imperial government when they have 15-20% of the population. That changes a little big if Beowulf and Hypatia join the Empire but not enough to matter. When 20% of the government was directly affected by something 60,70 or 100 years ago, chances are that it will carry some weight but the 80% not directly affected will have a different attitude and feeling towards OB and Beowulf Strike.

Theemile wrote:On the other hand, in 50 years the Average working Talbotter will have always known membership in the SKM and it's values/culture, while the average Old-SKM (or Hypathian/Beowulfian) will still have adult memories of the Malign Attrocities. It will not be in everyone's foreminds (anymore than 9-11 is a daily thought in most Americans these days), but it will still be part of culture.

munroburton wrote:The same forces which caused those massacres in Manticore and Beowulf also tried to sabotage the Quadrant's annexation. They did this by sponsoring/creating terrorist organisations on various Quadrant planets and when that failed, tossed Byng & Crandall into their space. Some of the Talbotters will not forget that.

Are you saying that France has forgotten Bastille Day, because there have been governmental changes? Or that Great Britain has no interest in Guy Fawkes Day, since that was so long ago? Much has happened to Hungary since its founding by King Stephen, but I believe his feast day is still celebrated. I expect every country accumulates celebrations that feed their historical narrative. As Theemile and Munroburton state the trauma was not just specific to a small part of the SEM, it is part of the origin story that any nation would prize and celebrate. For the SEM that origin story will always contain the perfidy of the Mesan Alignment that pushed nations into war and resulted in the Grand Alliance.

Sigs wrote:

tlb wrote:Without a doubt, there will be a day of remembrance set aside. But it is not just the Yawata Strike that will keep memories alive; it is also the murder of about 40 million with the destruction of the Beowulf orbitals, because of the close ties between Manticore and Beowulf. Even if the fervor of the hunt dies out because of a lack of clues; there will still be changes to perimeter security and building codes required by the perceived failures to prevent deaths.

Perhaps in several generations, if the Malign is absent, you are correct that focus will shift by everyone from their threat. But when the Malign does reemerge, if people recognize them as that forgotten threat, then all the old feelings will revive in full. However if the connection is not made, then they are just be a new problem for a new day.

Problem with that is in 50 years Talbot would be fully incorporated into the SEM and the SEM government would reflect that as well. Likely Silesia is on the same or similar timetable, which means that in 60 years the make up of the SEM Parliament will be significantly different when compared to the make up of Parliament in 1923. With the loosening of the finances from the House of Lords, and likelihood that the new member systems will also be joining the house of lords or the house of lords and house of Commons will be relegated to SKM government, while the imperial government would be the national government in control of the military, national budget etc...

The SKM would be province, it would be a prosperous province but just a province none the less and just like any other state/province they wont be able to unilaterally make decisions for the imperial government when they have 15-20% of the population. That changes a little big if Beowulf and Hypatia join the Empire but not enough to matter. When 20% of the government was directly affected by something 60,70 or 100 years ago, chances are that it will carry some weight but the 80% not directly affected will have a different attitude and feeling towards OB and Beowulf Strike.

Admittedly, I never considered how drastically the government may change, except offhandedly.

However, if that is so, then you must apply the notion across the board and expect the Treecats would also get equal representation. And there is NO way the Cats will ever... forget, or allow anyone else to.

Besides, surely there are memorials, statues, streets and more named after those lost at the hands of Oyster Bay.

cthia wrote:Admittedly, I never considered how drastically the government may change, except offhandedly.

However, if that is so, then you must apply the notion across the board and expect the Treecats would also get equal representation. And there is NO way the Cats will ever... forget, or allow anyone else to.

Besides, surely there are memorials, statues, streets and more named after those lost at the hands of Oyster Bay.

Even if you give the cats anything in the Imperial Parliament, it would be negligible because in 50 years it is stipulated that the Imperial Parliament would be based on population and that would be at most 1 member IF they are give the right.

Theemile wrote:
On the other hand, in 50 years the Average working Talbotter will have always known membership in the SKM and it's values/culture, while the average Old-SKM (or Hypathian/Beowulfian) will still have adult memories of the Malign Attrocities. It will not be in everyone's foreminds (anymore than 9-11 is a daily thought in most Americans these days), but it will still be part of culture.

Yeah, part of the culture as in commemorate it but in 60 years there would be a whole host of new issues, wars and general problems to actually do much about it. If they find Darius in 100 years its one thing, if they find out about a heavily industrialized nation of 10-20 systems a few thousand LY away from the rest of humanity with a strong and capable navy it might be a whole different issue.

In one, they invade one system with limited military potential, capture it and get their revenge, in the other they have to invade a nation that might be stronger then them, a nation that is significantly further away and there are no bases near by.

Imagine trying to convince parliament to go to war with a multi-system nation thousands of LY away on something that happened decades or centuries ago? Especially when the GA/SEM might not know exactly how strong militarily or industry wise the MA is, it would be a non starter. The only way they get revenge at that point is if they unite the galaxy against them while the MA is hundreds of years from being capable of taking on all of humanity.

munroburton wrote:
The same forces which caused those massacres in Manticore and Beowulf also tried to sabotage the Quadrant's annexation. They did this by sponsoring/creating terrorist organisations on various Quadrant planets and when that failed, tossed Byng & Crandall into their space. Some of the Talbotters will not forget that.

And you think people in Talbott are not used to this? How many of them lived with the shadow of Frontier Security over them? They knew the League was coming, and besides, how many of Talbotts citizens who were adults and went through this would be alive by then? Majority of Talbott doesn't even have prolong, so the people who remember and care would be pitifully small. Chances are, in a few decades to a century there would be so many minor and major problems in the SEM that revenge on the MA would not be a realistic option unless they were still a one system polity.

tlb wrote:Are you saying that France has forgotten Bastille Day, because there have been governmental changes?

There is a HUGE difference between remembering and being ready to get in a major war over something that happened years ago.

Or that Great Britain has no interest in Guy Fawkes Day, since that was so long ago?

Its one thing for the US to celebrate independence day, its a whole different thing for the US to decide to invade the UK to avenge a wrong done to them during the revolutionary war.

It will be remembered, people will honor the victims and then they go back to their lives and their problems.

Much has happened to Hungary since its founding by King Stephen, but I believe his feast day is still celebrated.

And how many people will go to war with Poland or Bulgaria today because of something that happened during his reign?

Or how many Americans will willingly go to war with the UK and Canada over the Burning of Washington? Or how many would go to war with Canada over what happened at York in April of 1813?

I expect every country accumulates celebrations that feed their historical narrative.

What would happen if in 2050 it comes out that the Russian Federation actually funded 9/11? Do you think Americans will happilly and willingly go to war Russia over something that happened 50 years before?

As Theemile and Munroburton state the trauma was not just specific to a small part of the SEM, it is part of the origin story that any nation would prize and celebrate.

Celebrate yes, get into a major war no. If they find the MA restricted to a single planet, or at most a secondary nation(RF) of a couple of dozen systems then they might do so, but if the MA is thousands of LY away with a nation of 20-40 systems that are heavily industrialized? With a powerful navy? There is a difference between honoring and going to war for decades to avenge this.

For the SEM that origin story will always contain the perfidy of the Mesan Alignment that pushed nations into war and resulted in the Grand Alliance.

And it will be celebrated, people will get drunk and do stupid things like every other holiday and they will move on, no one will be willing to build a fleet of 3,4 or 5 thousand SD(P)'s and CLAC's to go invade the MA which is thousands of LY away out of obligation.