Mesan Alignment post war

Theemile wrote:
I agree that is the correct path, but Darius is being lead by a 1/2 dozen control freaks with a superiority complex whose daddy just died they will want to be hands on and bring the warped plan to fruition... now.

All you really need is one guy to take charge, change direction and get rid of the people above him who are leading the MA to its doom.

Darius will hide for a year or 2, rebuilding it's network, building it's fleet before it acts. It should wait 20, allowing the RF to grow in power and popularity, before they reformulate the plan.

If the SL maintains its strength even if reduced, and the GA is on the other side, this becomes 100 times harder.

tlb wrote:What problem would that solve (a DB in a freighter) that could not be solved by a small transport (like the Tankersley) only with a military grade compensator and the streak drive?

More likely to get caught using unknown technology than if its just like every other ship.

After all a freighter with a dedicated setup to carry a DB is just as odd,

I'm sure there are people who purchase DB sized ships for their systems, pleasure craft like the Jamie Candless only bigger. Or delivering a DB boat to some out of the way system and just because it makes no sense to deliver a DB boat in a freighter, doesn't mean it isn't being done.

instead of hiding in empty systems (which requires preplanning to achieve a rendezvous).

Not really it doesn't, the Freighter stops in a system and waits for the DB to do it's business and come back, load up for the return trip.

Theemile wrote:
Why not a normal regularly scheduled ship making a scheduled deep space rendezvous with the Darius freighter? Or better yet, use a deep space buoy for the data tradeoff so no one sees each other.

There are a million ways to do this, in human explored space with 6,000+ systems, dozens or hundreds of nations, trillions of people and probably tens of millions of systems that are unoccupied and/or have nothing of value or interest.

Sigs wrote:And like I said, at some point over the next 600 years they will figure it out, you can feed someone false info and they might never find out if that's the only source, even if the others are only peripheral sources things add up and quickly cut off that network. Most of this intel will not be time sensitive, they are just building up background information so they are kept abreast on what is going on in human explored space and they can build a database that will grow over the centuries so that if/when they decide to start creating a plan they have a solid background on all the major and minor players.

The communication channels will not individually last 600 years. They will barely last 50, though in an age of prolong it could be more. That means the MA needs to constantly rebuild the network, as assets disappear, retire, get retired or disappeared, compromised or burned. That means counter-intelligence needs to keep finding the new channels.

Either way, it means constant upkeep, which means some type of timely control. The further you are, the more difficult it is to control.

Also, one year travel by streak drive (which the whole Galaxy will have in 50 years) might not be far enough. One year in streak is what, 4000 light-years? For that to last 600 years, the Settled Space needs to grow at most 6.6 light-years per year. I have no idea what the growth rate is, but finding and settling a habitable system 66 light-years (8 days' travel) every 10 years sounds completely doable.

And at some point over the decades this gets corrected. You don't think that at some point the MA will send a message to the handlers to direct them to look at something else? But more importantly the point is to get as much intel as possible rather than specific intel, unless its interesting piece of kit. Having intelligence on the RMN is just background information, having intelligence on the SEM and its economy and industry is once again just background information.

The whole point of this is so that if 600 years down the road the MA decides to go to war with the rest of humanity, or decides to reenact the plan from before or create a whole new one they can do so because they have plenty of background information. They can see how some nations are bound to react and it becomes easier to predict reactions if you have 600 years worth of intel on a nation.

If timely information is not important, ok.

But that means they might be 20 years out of date. Imagine someone in 1922 who knows nothing better than Scientist- and Indefatigable-class SDs and BCs and has barely heard of a Star Knight-class CA and has never even envisioned FTL communications or carriers. They arrive with a Scientist++ ship (basically, a Vega class) and discover they can't survive against RMN cruisers? And just to show this is not a special even in history, if this is 50 years earlier (1872), they'd arrive ships completely unprepared for the laser warhead.

You're going to say, "when they're ready to come back, they shorten the loop and spy more thoroughly." Sure, but what if they're ready and they can't find the information or miss it, because they're not inserted in the context? Plan fails. What if someone stumbles upon them? They're not ready. I'm sure they could convince themselves that this suffices, but it has a lot of risk to me.

Soon enough, military tech becomes widely available to other nations, if the original nation doesn't sell the tech the others will spend money figuring it out. If you cant get it from the SEM in 2320, you can get it from the Star Kingdom of Mobius, the Republic of Seraphim, or any one of the dozens or hundreds of nations trying to maintain parity.

You ignored my point that when the technology is declassified sufficiently for those low-security buyers, it's no longer the state of the art in the militaries that invented the technology in the first place. How many systems are building warheads even close to the RMN Mk13 laser head of the turn of the century in 1923? Let alone a Mk23D system-defence missile with improved lasing rods.

Yeah and in the next 600 years the MA will sure make an effort to do some more research, and improve your intelligence apparatus to get the tech you want quicker.

You're ignoring my point that you cannot guarantee that your own R&D will produce something usable. If all you have is the technology you stole from everyone else, you can at best beat them in quantity, never quality.

Being 20 years behind the curve on military tech wouldn't be a big deal since you have centuries to catch up and you need to focus on building your industry. They will have literarily centuries to improve their intelligence apparatus to cut the gap down.

It's being always 20 years behind, at all times, including at the time when you plan to relaunch your invasion and, worse, if you happen to be found.

So? It's not whether it will work or not, its whether the MA thinks it will work or not.

Can't argue with that. If they are arrogant, live in an echo chamber and are convince of their superiority (which they are), they might self-delude into thinking a horrible plan is actually good.

That's why you don't make your population slaves and that's why you improve your industry and make life good for your people rather than oppress them. I think the MA will have more of a chance to unify their people and keep them unified than the SL or the GA.

But if you give them enough freedoms, someone is going to build a ship and visit the rest of the Galaxy, for research purposes.

The MA controls the history, if you keep the existence of the rest of humanity secret no one can go looking for the rest of humanity, or you can be honest and embellish the atrocities that the rest of humanity is doing to each other. But what would stealing a ship accomplish though? How do you find the rest of humanity? The MA leadership wont put the address of Earth in the history books.

All the while breeding people for intelligence? Someone is going to spot the holes and wonder about the blacklisted history. It might take centuries for that to happen, but over a long period of time, it will happen.

Its a lot easier when everyone starts from the same group of people. The MA starts with 1 planet in 1 system, once they are sufficiently large and industrially capable they expand from there. Write the history you want, just the truth would do. There are constant wars and atrocities happening in the rest of humanity, people are oppressed and murdered by the millions for minor advantages, while we in the MA have our glorious Navy to protect us, the Army, to protect us and out police force to protect us.

Sure. But inside of a few decades someone is going to want to explore the rest of the Settled Space to see if the situation has changed. Some are going to be benefactors and will want to proselytise the "True Way."

And they cant remain isolated for ever, but if you are 1,000 LY away from the furthest system occupied by humans it would be a while before anyone comes into your neighbourhood.

Sure, 150 years?

The worry is not that the Settled Space explorers find you (which must be a worry for Darius), but that the your own population want to go pay a visit.

Sigs wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Why not a normal regularly scheduled ship making a scheduled deep space rendezvous with the Darius freighter? Or better yet, use a deep space buoy for the data tradeoff so no one sees each other.

There are a million ways to do this, in human explored space with 6,000+ systems, dozens or hundreds of nations, trillions of people and probably tens of millions of systems that are unoccupied and/or have nothing of value or interest.

Precisely, no reason to use special DB/freighter combinations. "Normal" ships, doing "normal" operations will do.

Nice thread Sigs.

My time has somewhat abandoned me at the moment. My loss. But, while driving by ...

Sigs wrote:What happens with the GA if the MA really did manage to cover their tracks?

What happens fi there is no link between Darrius and Mesa?

One cancels out the other doesn't it? Or is a moot point. Or implies the other. Or something like that ...

If the MA managed to cover its tracks, then there IS no link between Darius and Mesa.

As far as the MA crawling back in it's shell "indefinitely," well, indefinitely may be just long enough for everyone to have become complacent when they attack. Several years? A few years? One, year? ... considering the human nature of man and might.

Sigs wrote:What happens with the GA if the MA really did manage to cover their tracks?

What happens fi there is no link between Darrius and Mesa?

cthia wrote:One cancels out the other doesn't it? Or is a moot point. Or implies the other. Or something like that ...
If the MA managed to cover its tracks, then there IS no link between Darius and Mesa.

As far as the MA crawling back in it's shell "indefinitely," well, indefinitely may be just long enough for everyone to have become complacent when they attack. Several years? A few years? One, year? ... considering the human nature of man and might.

As long as Mannerheim has to guard some of the wormhole junctions, then there never will be zero links. But that link might be difficult to find.

I am not sure that the present management of the Malign has the self control to draw back now for even a short respite.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
The communication channels will not individually last 600 years. They will barely last 50, though in an age of prolong it could be more. That means the MA needs to constantly rebuild the network, as assets disappear, retire, get retired or disappeared, compromised or burned. That means counter-intelligence needs to keep finding the new channels.

Im pretty sure that intelligence agencies keep building their networks because people retire, get sick, burned out, caught or just get hit by a car.

That's why they leave someone competent in charge that knows what they need to do to build networks throughout the galaxy. Its not like they will build a network and forget about it until those people retire or die and then start from scratch.

Either way, it means constant upkeep, which means some type of timely control. The further you are, the more difficult it is to control.

They don't control the network from their new home base, they leave someone competent to build and run the network, and periodically send him capable deputies to help expand the network.

Also, one year travel by streak drive (which the whole Galaxy will have in 50 years) might not be far enough. One year in streak is what, 4000 light-years? For that to last 600 years, the Settled Space needs to grow at most 6.6 light-years per year. I have no idea what the growth rate is, but finding and settling a habitable system 66 light-years (8 days' travel) every 10 years sounds completely doable.

Sorry, they moved x LY away. x=however many LY they felt comfortable moving based on the projected expansion of humanity, using the previous 200 years as an example.

You ignored my point that when the technology is declassified sufficiently for those low-security buyers, it's no longer the state of the art in the militaries that invented the technology in the first place. How many systems are building warheads even close to the RMN Mk13 laser head of the turn of the century in 1923? Let alone a Mk23D system-defence missile with improved lasing rods.

And that would be a problem if you are at the tail end of your plan and are planning on war, it is not a problem if you are 200 years away from your plan. The MA wont need to have 10,000 SD(P)'s with the newest tech at all times for the next 600,700 or 1,000 years, they need to maintain a proper military so they build experience and naval tradition, if their ships are 20,30,40 or 50 years behind the rest of the humanity its fine as long as they work on cutting that time down and expanding their network.

And in 400 years when most if not all of the individuals who lived through OB are long dead, the SL-GA war, OB, Beowulf Strike, slavery and the MA will be nothing but ancient history. Which means intelligence gathering should improve with time, when you have 50,60 or 100 year plan you might end up with your agent being chief of ONI in the RMN/GSN/RHN/SLN etc... in the mean time, the MA does not need parity and they do not need a massive fleet with equally capable ships because it becomes a waste of resources to build a large fleet if you instead can build up your industry.

You're ignoring my point that you cannot guarantee that your own R&D will produce something usable.

I cant guarantee anything, can you?

If all you have is the technology you stole from everyone else, you can at best beat them in quantity, never quality.

So the SKM is the ONLY nation that can be innovative?

If the MA builds a tradition of freedom of research, invests a lot of resources into research and development they will come up with interesting and unique products. They may invest 1,000,000 times as much as the GA does in research and their only invention is a can opener that works a little faster but truly what are the chances? They already came up with a number of technologies that the rest of the galaxy did know about or wasn't even considering.

If the MA adopts the mindset of nothing is off limits, invest money in every research project no matter how unlikely it is to produce results and something will come out of it.

And if the MA suddenly loses their ability to do R&D then they try to cut down the loop as much as possible to keep up.

It's being always 20 years behind, at all times, including at the time when you plan to relaunch your invasion and, worse, if you happen to be found.

Yeah, because the intelligence gathering will not improve and the loop will never shrink.

Can't argue with that. If they are arrogant, live in an echo chamber and are convince of their superiority (which they are), they might self-delude into thinking a horrible plan is actually good.

As opposed to their current plan?

Building their nation allows them options, 500,600,1000 years down the road their thinking could be different and they wont want to deal with the rest of humanity, they could decide to open their borders and show to the rest of humanity how superior their way of life is, or in 600 years the MA could have fractured into hundreds of nations and the plan is long forgotten.

But if you give them enough freedoms, someone is going to build a ship and visit the rest of the Galaxy, for research purposes.

And how exactly do they find the rest of humanity?

All the while breeding people for intelligence? Someone is going to spot the holes and wonder about the blacklisted history. It might take centuries for that to happen, but over a long period of time, it will happen.

Yeah, they don't have to lie, they can tell the truth and actually focused on the negatives. No one needs to lie about humanity, we as a species do some pretty f*cked up atrocities, just put emphasis on them and ignore the few bright lights.

How many people will be oh so jealous of the wars, genocides, and oppression that the rest of humanity is experiencing?

Sure. But inside of a few decades someone is going to want to explore the rest of the Settled Space to see if the situation has changed. Some are going to be benefactors and will want to proselytise the "True Way."

And when that happens they deal with it. Cant really have the answers for every potential problem of the next few hundred years. It might happen and it might not.

Sure, 150 years?

Sorry, they moved x LY away. x=however many LY they felt comfortable moving based on the projected expansion of humanity, using the previous 200 years as an example.

The worry is not that the Settled Space explorers find you (which must be a worry for Darius), but that the your own population want to go pay a visit.

Deal with this as it happens, cant solve everything on the front end of a centuries long build up. That's how you show your superiority, dealing with problems as they come up not run away because someone might in 200 years decide to find the rest of humanity or decide not to start because 300 years from now someone will question of humanity is really that bad.

I feel a solution like moving away from humanity and building up their empire will be better than most others, when they are ready they have plenty of options. They can conquer humanity, they can destroy the galactic order and swoop in afterword's, they can open their borders and show everyone how superior they are, or they can decide to fortify hundreds of systems between humanity and their nation, and blow away anyone who approaches their space. That's the beauty of options, having them gives you freedom, planning for redo to their current plan only a few hundred years later leads to the exact same problem, one mistake or unforeseen obstacle and mission fail with no back up.

cthia wrote:Nice thread Sigs.

My time has somewhat abandoned me at the moment. My loss. But, while driving by ...

Sigs wrote:What happens with the GA if the MA really did manage to cover their tracks?

What happens fi there is no link between Darrius and Mesa?

One cancels out the other doesn't it? Or is a moot point. Or implies the other. Or something like that ...

If the MA managed to cover its tracks, then there IS no link between Darius and Mesa.

As far as the MA crawling back in it's shell "indefinitely," well, indefinitely may be just long enough for everyone to have become complacent when they attack. Several years? A few years? One, year? ... considering the human nature of man and might.

That is what interests me, the GA and the SL can be pissed at the MA only so long before other more pressing concerns start taking away their attention and even with prolong their attention would be only so long before the current generation is dead or retired. It will be soon enough that a different generation of politicians take the reigns from the old guard and there is only so long they can beat the MA drum before the population gets tired of it. So at some point the search for the MA becomes a historical study and not an active operation.


Soon enough, ONI will be putting their shitpumps on the MA desk because they will be needing their best and brightest on the hot spots of the day rather than the hotspots of 50 years ago.

tlb wrote:
I am not sure that the present management of the Malign has the self control to draw back now for even a short respite.

The question is if they had the self control and erased their tracks how would the GA and SL react? How long can the Queen and the current SEM/RoH leadership beat the MA drum before the people replace them or ignore them?