OOPS

tlb wrote:PS. I was trying to differential between unmanned and and manned craft, so I was including drones in my unclear "missile" comment.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Maybe before Ghost Rider, but even then, a Recon Drone that has a very leaky reactor will show up in your sensors. It's leaking in the EM spectrum, after all.

What? I was talking about why a micro fusion reactor might not be used in a shuttle or pinnacle and never said anything about leaky. KZT did mention "radiation" as a reason for not using them on a manned vehicle, but there is no suggestion that a Manticore RD is not stealthy.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Maybe before Ghost Rider, but even then, a Recon Drone that has a very leaky reactor will show up in your sensors. It's leaking in the EM spectrum, after all.

What? I was talking about why a micro fusion reactor might not be used in a shuttle or pinnacle and never said anything about leaky. KZT did mention "radiation" as a reason for not using them on a manned vehicle, but there is no suggestion that a Manticore RD is not stealthy.

Sorry, I crossed my wires then.

My point is simply that a reactor unsuitable for manned ships because of radiation is unsuitable for a stealthy RD.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:PS. I was trying to differential between unmanned and and manned craft, so I was including drones in my unclear "missile" comment.

Maybe before Ghost Rider, but even then, a Recon Drone that has a very leaky reactor will show up in your sensors. It's leaking in the EM spectrum, after all.

No, it's got Plot Stealth.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, given that the Honorverse is based on gravitational technology, it's possible that their fusion is enabled by gravitation, not temperature. That might make for much safer reactors. But then we might not have the big booms of containment failure.

If you could induce fusion with gravitics alone I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of other implications. Rather, I think we are seeing gravity used to highly compress the hydrogen and to confine the plasma so it doesn't melt the reactor. (And in the bombs it is compressed akin to what the fission trigger does, then a powerful laser ignites it--since the laser is destroyed by the boom it doesn't matter if it's massively overloaded and destroyed in firing.)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:PS. I was trying to differential between unmanned and and manned craft, so I was including drones in my unclear "missile" comment.

Maybe before Ghost Rider, but even then, a Recon Drone that has a very leaky reactor will show up in your sensors. It's leaking in the EM spectrum, after all.

Could be particle radiation. Neutrons are hard to deal with, maybe the drones simply don't.

So cthia, this is how this discussion always ends up. Everyone falls into the TAC update only group or the internal systems hacked group. The TAC update group focuses on what runaway weapons systems could do, The internal systems hack group focuses on scuttling charges and reactors.

No one sells anything to anyone else due to lack of solid facts and just enough side evidence that their explanation is plausible, and just enough side evidence that the others... arn't.

Because let's face it, a Shuttle, RD or Missile should have a physical interlock keeping it's wedge and warhead turned off. Reactors should have failsafes. Networks should have firewalls. scuttling charges should be hardwired. TAC routines should require a human authorization when triggered. (Outside Point defense, but even that should be able to lock down)

Simultaneously, networks Can be hacked, especially when you know their configs and passcodes. Physical items can be bypassed by changing pointers and values in software. Human are lazy, and will sign off on routine, boring stuff without checking it. So who knows.


However, while writing this, The idea of the Squadrons shooting themselves in formation with Grasers is gaining credence in my mind, though it still misses a couple litmus points for me.

Point Defense is an automatic process when at elevated alert levels, attacking whatever has triggered their threat database. On Havenite ships, anti-ship Grasers are used for Point Defense when not in anti-ship use. If you were to build a routine to replace the threat database with ... Say... Havenite SDs with their sidewalls up and weapons cleared. What would happen?

And all Shannon would need to do was trigger the TAC command to run the routine to replace the threat databases. Every subject ships would see the rest of their squadron as a threat and target all PD assets on the programmed vulnerable spots. Since the SS ships were at Battle Conditions to demand Giscard's and Tourville's surrender, the subroutine would automatically be triggered by adjacent threats. Suddenly grasers , lasers pdlcs AND CMs (which were not included in the new threat database) are fired at the new threats at their vulnerable spots - the wedge openings. Ouch.

Yes, the Squadron Grasers were mentioned up-thread, and their inclusion in Havenite defenses is what got me thinking about this. Why this does not pass my litmus is this doesn't promise an instant kill on an SD, let alone 24 of them - and would be a noticeable fact to anyone watching, not just a "boom". However, such point could be dropped for dramatization of the events.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, given that the Honorverse is based on gravitational technology, it's possible that their fusion is enabled by gravitation, not temperature. That might make for much safer reactors. But then we might not have the big booms of containment failure.

If you could induce fusion with gravitics alone I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of other implications. Rather, I think we are seeing gravity used to highly compress the hydrogen and to confine the plasma so it doesn't melt the reactor. (And in the bombs it is compressed akin to what the fission trigger does, then a powerful laser ignites it--since the laser is destroyed by the boom it doesn't matter if it's massively overloaded and destroyed in firing.)

No, they are grav implosion. You create the temp and pressure greater than you get at the center of the sun.

Theemile wrote:So cthia, this is how this discussion always ends up. Everyone falls into the TAC update only group or the internal systems hacked group. The TAC update group focuses on what runaway weapons systems could do, The internal systems hack group focuses on scuttling charges and reactors.

No one sells anything to anyone else due to lack of solid facts and just enough side evidence that their explanation is plausible, and just enough side evidence that the others... arn't.

Because let's face it, a Shuttle, RD or Missile should have a physical interlock keeping it's wedge and warhead turned off. Reactors should have failsafes. Networks should have firewalls. scuttling charges should be hardwired. TAC routines should require a human authorization when triggered. (Outside Point defense, but even that should be able to lock down)

Simultaneously, networks Can be hacked, especially when you know their configs and passcodes. Physical items can be bypassed by changing pointers and values in software. Human are lazy, and will sign off on routine, boring stuff without checking it. So who knows.


However, while writing this, The idea of the Squadrons shooting themselves in formation with Grasers is gaining credence in my mind, though it still misses a couple litmus points for me.

Point Defense is an automatic process when at elevated alert levels, attacking whatever has triggered their threat database. On Havenite ships, anti-ship Grasers are used for Point Defense when not in anti-ship use. If you were to build a routine to replace the threat database with ... Say... Havenite SDs with their sidewalls up and weapons cleared. What would happen?

And all Shannon would need to do was trigger the TAC command to run the routine to replace the threat databases. Every subject ships would see the rest of their squadron as a threat and target all PD assets on the programmed vulnerable spots. Since the SS ships were at Battle Conditions to demand Giscard's and Tourville's surrender, the subroutine would automatically be triggered by adjacent threats. Suddenly grasers , lasers pdlcs AND CMs (which were not included in the new threat database) are fired at the new threats at their vulnerable spots - the wedge openings. Ouch.

Yes, the Squadron Grasers were mentioned up-thread, and their inclusion in Havenite defenses is what got me thinking about this. Why this does not pass my litmus is this doesn't promise an instant kill on an SD, let alone 24 of them - and would be a noticeable fact to anyone watching, not just a "boom". However, such point could be dropped for dramatization of the events.

The formation doesn’t work.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:So cthia, this is how this discussion always ends up. Everyone falls into the TAC update only group or the internal systems hacked group. The TAC update group focuses on what runaway weapons systems could do, The internal systems hack group focuses on scuttling charges and reactors.

No one sells anything to anyone else due to lack of solid facts and just enough side evidence that their explanation is plausible, and just enough side evidence that the others... arn't.

Because let's face it, a Shuttle, RD or Missile should have a physical interlock keeping it's wedge and warhead turned off. Reactors should have failsafes. Networks should have firewalls. scuttling charges should be hardwired. TAC routines should require a human authorization when triggered. (Outside Point defense, but even that should be able to lock down)

Simultaneously, networks Can be hacked, especially when you know their configs and passcodes. Physical items can be bypassed by changing pointers and values in software. Human are lazy, and will sign off on routine, boring stuff without checking it. So who knows.


However, while writing this, The idea of the Squadrons shooting themselves in formation with Grasers is gaining credence in my mind, though it still misses a couple litmus points for me.

Point Defense is an automatic process when at elevated alert levels, attacking whatever has triggered their threat database. On Havenite ships, anti-ship Grasers are used for Point Defense when not in anti-ship use. If you were to build a routine to replace the threat database with ... Say... Havenite SDs with their sidewalls up and weapons cleared. What would happen?

And all Shannon would need to do was trigger the TAC command to run the routine to replace the threat databases. Every subject ships would see the rest of their squadron as a threat and target all PD assets on the programmed vulnerable spots. Since the SS ships were at Battle Conditions to demand Giscard's and Tourville's surrender, the subroutine would automatically be triggered by adjacent threats. Suddenly grasers , lasers pdlcs AND CMs (which were not included in the new threat database) are fired at the new threats at their vulnerable spots - the wedge openings. Ouch.

Yes, the Squadron Grasers were mentioned up-thread, and their inclusion in Havenite defenses is what got me thinking about this. Why this does not pass my litmus is this doesn't promise an instant kill on an SD, let alone 24 of them - and would be a noticeable fact to anyone watching, not just a "boom". However, such point could be dropped for dramatization of the events.

The formation doesn’t work.

No, not very well, most weapons would probably be useless, which is another reason it doesn't ensure the instant kill we saw. of course, we could also say she had the sidewalls drop at the same time the threats were identified (red alert: sidewalls=off) which would allow more angles of attack. But this also does not match the events described, nor promises 24 instant kills.

kzt wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:BTW, given that the Honorverse is based on gravitational technology, it's possible that their fusion is enabled by gravitation, not temperature. That might make for much safer reactors. But then we might not have the big booms of containment failure.

Loren Pechtel wrote:If you could induce fusion with gravitics alone I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of other implications. Rather, I think we are seeing gravity used to highly compress the hydrogen and to confine the plasma so it doesn't melt the reactor. (And in the bombs it is compressed akin to what the fission trigger does, then a powerful laser ignites it--since the laser is destroyed by the boom it doesn't matter if it's massively overloaded and destroyed in firing.)

No, they are grav implosion. You create the temp and pressure greater than you get at the center of the sun.

No--compressing the material to star core density doesn't produce star core heat.

The center of the sun is about 150 g/cm^3. The most logical material for an h-bomb is lithium deuteride at .83g/cm^3. Thus it's 180x compression to the density of the sun. That yields a temperature of about 54k K--nowhere near hot enough. (Even worse for reactors--the fuel is 1/10th the density so you need 10x the compression--but it's 15x colder, so the end result is an even lower temperature.) They're using gravity for the compression and something else for the heat.