Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:Retraining someone to build a factory should not take that long. Walls are walls and floors are floors after all.

Sorry, not all walls and floors are created equal. If you need to hold (literally) tonnes of equipment, you don't build to civilian standards, you build to industrial requirements. If there's the possibility of an explosion, then the walls need to be designed to containi that explosion. Same thing for dangerous chemicals. And if molycirc is anything like modern semiconductor manufacturing, you need clean rooms which you're not going to find in any office or habitation.

tlb wrote:There are at least two arguments against building factories on the ground: first the primary building material comes from the asteroid belts and it is easier and cleaner to delivery it to a factory in space; second for any artifact with significant mass building in space means you contend with inertial, but do not need to fight gravity.

Kizarvexis wrote:Countergrav makes access to and from space cheap. While building ground side factories would be more expensive than space facilities, as you eliminate one to two trips through the gravity well, your space construction force is limited after the attack, but the groundside force that constructs buildings is largely unaffected.

Besides, I noted that this would not be a permanent change to the locations of factories, but temporary until the space infrastructure is rebuilt to allow for factories in space. Not to mention that the some of the infrastructure could be built on the ground and lifted into space.

And since you need to recruit new factory workers, guess where they would come from, since the huge space station that housed people is now gone? From the ground of course. So if the factory is on the ground, you don't have to build the habitat for the space factories right away nor huge terminals for a daily ground to space to ground workforce at first either.

You put factories on the ground to build stuff that doesn't require microgravity. That way your space industry that you are rebuilding can work on the stuff that requires microgravity first, while your ground factories build the other stuff. Like sections of a new station perhaps. Again, once you get far enough along that you have largely rebuilt the space infrastructure, then you close down the factories.

Yes, just waiting until you rebuild the space infrastructure would be cheaper than building factories, but you lose those months to years that Haven, the SLN, and the MAlignment are not going to give you. So a little more money, for more capability earlier is worth the cost.

Kizarvexis wrote:
(Snippage)

With the reduced capacity for building ships, I doubt LAC bases could be built in other systems. But if they could, it would be great. We were not told how difficult it was to put together the tamales, so it might require repair ships and they would be busy. Then you keep the LAC freighters to be a central support and command base. I wonder if you could 'hot bunk' the LACs if some of them are on patrols for days. If so, you could increase the LAC presence in the system for each freighter you convert.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:There are at least two arguments against building factories on the ground: first the primary building material comes from the asteroid belts and it is easier and cleaner to delivery it to a factory in space; second for any artifact with significant mass building in space means you contend with inertial, but do not need to fight gravity.

Kizarvexis wrote:Countergrav makes access to and from space cheap. While building ground side factories would be more expensive than space facilities, as you eliminate one to two trips through the gravity well, your space construction force is limited after the attack, but the groundside force that constructs buildings is largely unaffected.

Besides, I noted that this would not be a permanent change to the locations of factories, but temporary until the space infrastructure is rebuilt to allow for factories in space. Not to mention that the some of the infrastructure could be built on the ground and lifted into space.

And since you need to recruit new factory workers, guess where they would come from, since the huge space station that housed people is now gone? From the ground of course. So if the factory is on the ground, you don't have to build the habitat for the space factories right away nor huge terminals for a daily ground to space to ground workforce at first either.

You put factories on the ground to build stuff that doesn't require microgravity. That way your space industry that you are rebuilding can work on the stuff that requires microgravity first, while your ground factories build the other stuff. Like sections of a new station perhaps. Again, once you get far enough along that you have largely rebuilt the space infrastructure, then you close down the factories.

Yes, just waiting until you rebuild the space infrastructure would be cheaper than building factories, but you lose those months to years that Haven, the SLN, and the MAlignment are not going to give you. So a little more money, for more capability earlier is worth the cost.

Yes contragrav mokes moving things cheap, including carrying the raw materials down into the gravity well; but there is also the point that building in space is cleaner. That is to say you do not need to be as worried about contaminating planetary air or water.

I will accept that some things can be built on the planet, but those things are a minor part of the economy.

I expect that the equipment that can build factories was the equipment that was in use building space ships; and so was destroyed. But if Beowulf has that equipment, then we first put it to work building replicas of itself until there are enough new ones to begin building factories and and the new space stations. When the space stations are in place then Beowulf can take their equipment home and what remains can start producing the missiles and ships.

One major part of the assembly process involved nanite farms and it is not clear whether that will work anyplace except in space. I do think that we know enough to guess.

For those that missed it, RFC did discuss the assembly lines in an earlier thread.
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Fox2! wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:
(Snippage)

With the reduced capacity for building ships, I doubt LAC bases could be built in other systems. But if they could, it would be great. We were not told how difficult it was to put together the tamales, so it might require repair ships and they would be busy. Then you keep the LAC freighters to be a central support and command base. I wonder if you could 'hot bunk' the LACs if some of them are on patrols for days. If so, you could increase the LAC presence in the system for each freighter you convert.

Even if you share bunk rooms and staterooms between LAC Squadrons which relieve each other, you still need secure storage space for personal items a crew can't take out on patrol. And there will always be individuals who are unable to deploy with their squadrons, or replacements who come in while their assigned squadron is out on patrol. So it's not quite a bunk for bunk swap.

A template might be the shore accommodations for SLBM crews, who alternate taking their boat out on patrol. Are separate quarters provided for "unaccompanied" sailors on each crew while the are ashore, or do they alternate sharing the same quarters, with provisions made for those who can not deploy with their crew, or who arrive while their is tended crew is on patrol?

Kizarvexis wrote:
Sorry, my fault as I wasn't clear using a term for people when I meant it for the LACs. I didn't mean personnel sharing bunks, as you can stuff bunk rooms anywhere in the ship that will fit. The LACs need access to the cargo bay doors, so I'm sure there is a limit on how many you can stuff in a freighter and have them able to fly in and out. But, if LAC 1010 is on patrol for two weeks, why couldn't LAC 1090 use the LAC bay for maintenance and refurbishment before it's patrol, freeing up the bay for another LAC for maintenance and refurbishment.

So if you can't build the tamale LAC bases for awhile, use the freighters as the base supporting more LACs than it has bays by 'hot bunking' the LACs in the LAC bays. It's not like anyone would want to send an unarmed civilian LAC carrier on an offensive mission that was not direly needed. So they would stay in the system on defense, likely inside the hyper limit, to support the LACs patrolling the system. If you had to pull out to cede the system and had more LACs than it has bays, you ditch and scuttle the extras after the people are off.

Kizarvexis wrote:From the link you provided, RFC talks about printed parts/sub-assemblies that are put together on a robotic assembly line. The printing is right by where it is assembled evidently. Does not seem like anything that would not work in gravity. I'm sure some things have to be built in microgravity, but I highly doubt it would be everything.

You really don't understand how industrial processes work in the Honorverse. We're talking here about, for example, molecular circuitry, which is identical in essentially every star nation; what matters is how you program the matrix in your individual molycircs. The basic sinews of industry are orbital refineries that produce bulk raw materials which then go to nanotech farms and "foundries" which are actually massive printers. What comes out of either of those processes depends solely on the blueprints you program into them. You need fittings in centimeters and meters? Fine, program your printers to produce them in metrics. You need them in imperial measure? Fine, program your printers to produce them in inches and feet. (Of course, that particular problem doesn't exist. Parts might be different sizes, but everyone uses the same measurement system. Well, except for Grayson baseball diamonds.) You need molycirc spares for your existing starships? Fine, tell the nannie farm what you need and churn them out.

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

Theemile wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:
Sorry, my fault as I wasn't clear using a term for people when I meant it for the LACs. I didn't mean personnel sharing bunks, as you can stuff bunk rooms anywhere in the ship that will fit. The LACs need access to the cargo bay doors, so I'm sure there is a limit on how many you can stuff in a freighter and have them able to fly in and out. But, if LAC 1010 is on patrol for two weeks, why couldn't LAC 1090 use the LAC bay for maintenance and refurbishment before it's patrol, freeing up the bay for another LAC for maintenance and refurbishment.

So if you can't build the tamale LAC bases for awhile, use the freighters as the base supporting more LACs than it has bays by 'hot bunking' the LACs in the LAC bays. It's not like anyone would want to send an unarmed civilian LAC carrier on an offensive mission that was not direly needed. So they would stay in the system on defense, likely inside the hyper limit, to support the LACs patrolling the system. If you had to pull out to cede the system and had more LACs than it has bays, you ditch and scuttle the extras after the people are off.

David called Civilian converted ships like this LAC tenders. There were a number built and sent to the Talbott sector to maintain the defensive LAC squadrons there. We have not seen them on screen, and they are purely defensive.

tlb wrote:RFC said this somewhat earlier in that thread:

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

We have no idea if those nanotech farms require being in space. So we would need more text from RFC to know whether you are right.

I have more of a problem understanding how someone can think that the equipment to create factories could have escaped being destroyed when all of Manticore's orbital manufacturing capacity was destroyed.

tlb wrote:RFC said this somewhat earlier in that thread:

Manticore's refineries weren't touched. Neither was the SEM's resource gathering infrastructure. What they lost were the fabrication platforms and the assembly platforms, where it all came together. That's what they're in the process of replacing using the basic processors being shipped in from Beowulf and even Haven. Where they can use Beowulfan-produced bits and pieces, like structural girders, of course they're doing just that. Wherever it comes to "Manticore-centric" parts, they just program the printers and the farms and churn them out as new.

We have no idea if those nanotech farms require being in space. So we would need more text from RFC to know whether you are right.

I have more of a problem understanding how someone can think that the equipment to create factories could have escaped being destroyed when all of Manticore's orbital manufacturing capacity was destroyed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Emphasis added.

Because a great deal of the infrastructure wasn't touched, especially everything not in orbit of the three planets. There should be plenty of fabrication units in the asteroid belts. I'll grant you not all of them.

And my thinking is also that the orbital space around the planets, especially Manticore, was crowded with industrial nodes, most of which were of low strategic value in the war. They were just there, producing everything else that the economy needed, like personal communication devices, lawn chairs, ceramacrete for groundside buildings, whatever. Given the limited number of shots the grasers and missiles could produce (and thus the limited number of targets they could engage), they had to focus on the really vital targets, those that could tip the war and allow for a Havenite win.

Now, I suppose you can make the argument that destroying the tools that allow Manticore to re-bootstrap their economy is a strategic target. But given what David said in terms of interchangeability, the tools furthest from specialisation would be the most interchangeable. Attacking the factory-building tools would be a minor setback for a 35-system empire: just ship them back from Talbott, Lynx, and Trevor's Star, where I expect plenty had been sent in order to get their economies going. Or from Beowulf.

I'll concede again this rests on assumptions not validated by textev. Though also not disproven.