Retrofitting the RMN: A Saganami Island Assignment

Kizarvexis wrote:Compared to what Manticore has after Oyster Bay? Less people and infrastructure in space to start with? I would think that putting up something on the ground would be faster then. Especially as the people and equipment who construct buildings are all there. They build huge towers with ceramacrete, so a factory should be child's play.

Why do you think the equipment to build factories is on the ground? Equipment to build residential and office buildings, sure. But they're not necessarily the same as factories. And besides, there's no reason to think the equipment to build orbital factories was destroyed during Oyster Bay. The fact that Manticore had a reasoable schedule to get back up to speed tells me that it wasn't.

This all depends on where the factories used to be before OB. If they were on the ground, they'd be recreated on the ground. If they were in space, they'd be rebuilt in space too. No reason to change hundreds of years of how manufacturing is done.

ThinksMarkedly wrote: And besides, there's no reason to think the equipment to build orbital factories was destroyed during Oyster Bay. The fact that Manticore had a reasonable schedule to get back up to speed tells me that it wasn't.

This all depends on where the factories used to be before OB. If they were on the ground, they'd be recreated on the ground. If they were in space, they'd be rebuilt in space too. No reason to change hundreds of years of how manufacturing is done.

But where else would the equipment to build space factories be, except in space? So it is reasonable to assume what was in the possession of Manticore or Grayson was destroyed. However what Beowulf has is compatible with what Manticore had, so the equipment to build factories can be leased and also built anew. With the personnel returned from Grendelsbane and additional training staff from Beowulf, it might be possible to retool on a reasonable schedule.

There are at least two arguments against building factories on the ground: first the primary building material comes from the asteroid belts and it is easier and cleaner to delivery it to a factory in space; second for any artifact with significant mass building in space means you contend with inertial, but do not need to fight gravity.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:Compared to what Manticore has after Oyster Bay? Less people and infrastructure in space to start with? I would think that putting up something on the ground would be faster then. Especially as the people and equipment who construct buildings are all there. They build huge towers with ceramacrete, so a factory should be child's play.

Why do you think the equipment to build factories is on the ground? Equipment to build residential and office buildings, sure. But they're not necessarily the same as factories. And besides, there's no reason to think the equipment to build orbital factories was destroyed during Oyster Bay. The fact that Manticore had a reasoable schedule to get back up to speed tells me that it wasn't.

This all depends on where the factories used to be before OB. If they were on the ground, they'd be recreated on the ground. If they were in space, they'd be rebuilt in space too. No reason to change hundreds of years of how manufacturing is done.

So over two thousand YEARS into the future, where mile high huge buildings are routinely built with ceramacrete, which is many times harder than any building material we have today, but factories would not be something that they could build on the ground? Are you serious?

Where do you think that our real life existing factories come from? Why do you think that future factories would be that much more complex than the existing factories? Sure, the equipment inside would be more complex, but not the building that houses them. And Manticore has the tech base for the complex equipment inside AND any new complexity for a future factory building.

Since the orbital infrastructure was wiped out, what's left has to build new space stations, factories, slips, habitats, missiles, ship hulls of all sizes, equipment for the ships and stations to make them work, repairs to existing ships, etc AND that is just for the military! Civilian requirements would likely be larger to replace what was made in space as the military of a society tends to be much smaller than the civilian industry and businesses.

Countergrav makes access to and from space cheap. While building ground side factories would be more expensive than space facilities, as you eliminate one to two trips through the gravity well, your space construction force is limited after the attack, but the groundside force that constructs buildings is largely unaffected.

Besides, I noted that this would not be a permanent change to the locations of factories, but temporary until the space infrastructure is rebuilt to allow for factories in space. Not to mention that the some of the infrastructure could be built on the ground and lifted into space.

And since you need to recruit new factory workers, guess where they would come from, since the huge space station that housed people is now gone? From the ground of course. So if the factory is on the ground, you don't have to build the habitat for the space factories right away nor huge terminals for a daily ground to space to ground workforce at first either.

You put factories on the ground to build stuff that doesn't require microgravity. That way your space industry that you are rebuilding can work on the stuff that requires microgravity first, while your ground factories build the other stuff. Like sections of a new station perhaps. Again, once you get far enough along that you have largely rebuilt the space infrastructure, then you close down the factories.

Yes, just waiting until you rebuild the space infrastructure would be cheaper than building factories, but you lose those months to years that Haven, the SLN, and the MAlignment are not going to give you. So a little more money, for more capability earlier is worth the cost.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote: And besides, there's no reason to think the equipment to build orbital factories was destroyed during Oyster Bay. The fact that Manticore had a reasonable schedule to get back up to speed tells me that it wasn't.

This all depends on where the factories used to be before OB. If they were on the ground, they'd be recreated on the ground. If they were in space, they'd be rebuilt in space too. No reason to change hundreds of years of how manufacturing is done.

But where else would the equipment to build space factories be, except in space? So it is reasonable to assume what was in the possession of Manticore or Grayson was destroyed. However what Beowulf has is compatible with what Manticore had, so the equipment to build factories can be leased and also built anew. With the personnel returned from Grendelsbane and additional training staff from Beowulf, it might be possible to retool on a reasonable schedule.

There are at least two arguments against building factories on the ground: first the primary building material comes from the asteroid belts and it is easier and cleaner to delivery it to a factory in space; second for any artifact with significant mass building in space means you contend with inertial, but do not need to fight gravity.

Countergrav makes access to and from space cheap. While building ground side factories would be more expensive than space facilities, as you eliminate one to two trips through the gravity well, your space construction force is limited after the attack, but the groundside force that constructs buildings is largely unaffected.

Besides, I noted that this would not be a permanent change to the locations of factories, but temporary until the space infrastructure is rebuilt to allow for factories in space. Not to mention that the some of the infrastructure could be built on the ground and lifted into space.

And since you need to recruit new factory workers, guess where they would come from, since the huge space station that housed people is now gone? From the ground of course. So if the factory is on the ground, you don't have to build the habitat for the space factories right away nor huge terminals for a daily ground to space to ground workforce at first either.

You put factories on the ground to build stuff that doesn't require microgravity. That way your space industry that you are rebuilding can work on the stuff that requires microgravity first, while your ground factories build the other stuff. Like sections of a new station perhaps. Again, once you get far enough along that you have largely rebuilt the space infrastructure, then you close down the factories.

Yes, just waiting until you rebuild the space infrastructure would be cheaper than building factories, but you lose those months to years that Haven, the SLN, and the MAlignment are not going to give you. So a little more money, for more capability earlier is worth the cost.

What we see actualy being described is Beowulf converting (presumed to convert) a lot of capasity to making things for Manticore and we guess Grayson (not sure that is actualy stated) incluidng the parts they need for manitence and repairs plus the habitat components and manufacturing lines to regain the Manticore manufacturing ability. And replace the three major stations with six and, and, and all sorts of other stuff.

And you now need to train SEM people to live and work in Space, building all that stuff, setting up all that stuff, repairing freighters as well as warships and providing all the service and support work to both rebuild the stations, yards, industries etc.

Manticore has San Martine and the several Systems in Talbot as a source of people but how long to train them to be competent and proficient to do all that construction and repair and manufacturing work is a different question.

Liberty Ships.... think building modular boxes on an assembly line except that the line isn't actualy moving. What is moving is all those pieces being fabricated and brought to the yards and then being fit together with the machinery and systems. I might be wrong but just about everyting on a Liberty was more or less "off the shelf" as far as equipment. Not prototype 1st line military gear. Proven, traditional gear that could be built by existing factories (or places that could be converted to do the work) with people trained or retrained to do it.

Somewhere I have seen a statement to the effect that given the cost and time, a Liberty really only had to make one successful trip across the ocean to be "cost effective". They were "good enough" to be used as cargo shuttles transatlantic and -with the newer convoy operations and volumes could be produced faster than the U-Boats could sink them.

They were, in fact, relatively tough and proved it by -those that survived the war- spending years giving profitable service in varioius merchant shipping.

But, you have to have the people to make the pieces, put them together and then fill them with what you need to move. That's what Manticore and Grayson needs.

tlb wrote:But where else would the equipment to build space factories be, except in space? So it is reasonable to assume what was in the possession of Manticore or Grayson was destroyed.

No, I disagree. I don't think there's any reason to assume that particular piece of equipment was destroyed. We actually don't know either way.

So I'll repeat my conclusion: because they had a schedule for getting back up to speed in 18 months or so, they had to have the equipment to build the new stations and factories (whether those factories are ground-side or space-side is not important for the moment). If they had to import equipment to make the tools to make the stations, I don't see it being done in that short a timeframe.

I also don't see why the equipment would have been idle. At a time of war and crash economic expansion, they'd have been busy building new factories. So even if they were space-borne, they wouldn't be on the stations in the first place.

However what Beowulf has is compatible with what Manticore had, so the equipment to build factories can be leased and also built anew. With the personnel returned from Grendelsbane and additional training staff from Beowulf, it might be possible to retool on a reasonable schedule.

I don't doubt Beowulfan equipment is compatible and will be loaned to Manticore to help in the process. But the estimates we were told were from before Beowulf help came into the picture. And what we did hear wasn't about equipment to make factories, but Beowulfan factories making war parts, especially missiles.

Kizarvexis wrote:Countergrav makes access to and from space cheap. While building ground side factories would be more expensive than space facilities, as you eliminate one to two trips through the gravity well, your space construction force is limited after the attack, but the groundside force that constructs buildings is largely unaffected.

However cheap it may be, it's not free (Thermodynamics gets in the way). And people are way lighter than the materials and finished products. So the economics may not work in the end: it might be cheaper not to lift the workers into space, but it might be more expensive to lift the finished product. My money is on the latter tipping the scale: a single 30-ton missile is equivalent to 300 person-trips.

[quote[Besides, I noted that this would not be a permanent change to the locations of factories, but temporary until the space infrastructure is rebuilt to allow for factories in space. Not to mention that the some of the infrastructure could be built on the ground and lifted into space. [/quote]

Temporary accommodations in a time of need may make sense. But I remain skeptical.

And since you need to recruit new factory workers, guess where they would come from, since the huge space station that housed people is now gone? From the ground of course. So if the factory is on the ground, you don't have to build the habitat for the space factories right away nor huge terminals for a daily ground to space to ground workforce at first either.

Ground-side workers who know how to build residential and office buildings may not be qualified to build industrial sites. The needs of the equipment being produced will dictate what the factory needs to be.

My point is, those workers need re-qualification.

And as pointed out in earlier threads, there has to be more people in Manticore who know how to work in space and there have to be transshipment hubs that were not destroyed by the Yawata Strike. For one, the total population doesn't add up otherwise. For another, if the entire space-borne infrastructure had been crippled, 18 months would get them nowhere near previous levels.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:However cheap it may be, it's not free (Thermodynamics gets in the way).

This is the Honorverse. It laughs at thermodynamics and says 'Hold my beer.'

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Kizarvexis wrote:Countergrav makes access to and from space cheap. While building ground side factories would be more expensive than space facilities, as you eliminate one to two trips through the gravity well, your space construction force is limited after the attack, but the groundside force that constructs buildings is largely unaffected.

However cheap it may be, it's not free (Thermodynamics gets in the way). And people are way lighter than the materials and finished products. So the economics may not work in the end: it might be cheaper not to lift the workers into space, but it might be more expensive to lift the finished product. My money is on the latter tipping the scale: a single 30-ton missile is equivalent to 300 person-trips.

[quote[Besides, I noted that this would not be a permanent change to the locations of factories, but temporary until the space infrastructure is rebuilt to allow for factories in space. Not to mention that the some of the infrastructure could be built on the ground and lifted into space.

Temporary accommodations in a time of need may make sense. But I remain skeptical.

And since you need to recruit new factory workers, guess where they would come from, since the huge space station that housed people is now gone? From the ground of course. So if the factory is on the ground, you don't have to build the habitat for the space factories right away nor huge terminals for a daily ground to space to ground workforce at first either.

Ground-side workers who know how to build residential and office buildings may not be qualified to build industrial sites. The needs of the equipment being produced will dictate what the factory needs to be.

My point is, those workers need re-qualification.

And as pointed out in earlier threads, there has to be more people in Manticore who know how to work in space and there have to be transshipment hubs that were not destroyed by the Yawata Strike. For one, the total population doesn't add up otherwise. For another, if the entire space-borne infrastructure had been crippled, 18 months would get them nowhere near previous levels.[/quote]

Retraining someone to build a factory should not take that long. Walls are walls and floors are floors after all.

Yes, there are people at trans-shipment hubs and other locations who know how to work in space. And they have jobs there that need doing as well. I'm sure some could be skimmed off, but not large numbers of them. Especially in areas where trans-shipment into Manticore or through the various termini are concerned. For example, the Andies are neutral as well as other polities, so you want that junction traffic to continue. So any space workers that keep the junctions working aren't going anywhere no matter the needs elsewhere as Manticore REALLY needs those fees to fund the rebuilding.

IIRC, after Oyster Bay they were talking years to get close to where they were before the attack. Seems reasonable that if you can spend more now, but get more capability faster, then doing something like putting in temp factories would work. Especially if you turn those military ones into civilian ones, once you get the military stuff you need back into space, but haven't built the civilian stuff yet. So you can get longer use of those temp factories than just military realities would envision.

Kizarvexis wrote:Retraining someone to build a factory should not take that long. Walls are walls and floors are floors after all.

Sorry, not all walls and floors are created equal. If you need to hold (literally) tonnes of equipment, you don't build to civilian standards, you build to industrial requirements. If there's the possibility of an explosion, then the walls need to be designed to containi that explosion. Same thing for dangerous chemicals. And if molycirc is anything like modern semiconductor manufacturing, you need clean rooms which you're not going to find in any office or habitation.

Yes, there are people at trans-shipment hubs and other locations who know how to work in space. And they have jobs there that need doing as well. I'm sure some could be skimmed off, but not large numbers of them. Especially in areas where trans-shipment into Manticore or through the various termini are concerned. For example, the Andies are neutral as well as other polities, so you want that junction traffic to continue. So any space workers that keep the junctions working aren't going anywhere no matter the needs elsewhere as Manticore REALLY needs those fees to fund the rebuilding.

Good point, you don't want to rob Peter to pay Paul. That's going to create shockwaves through your economy.