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SLN Future

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Re: SLN Future
Post by kzt   » Wed May 20, 2020 2:14 pm

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tlb wrote:I should have made it clear than I was talking about SDF ships in the Core Worlds of the League (since the thread is the SLN Future). Now that the Silesian Confederation has been broken up, I am not sure who would have the ability to build a vanity fleet in the Verge.

There are something upwards of 6000 systems in the verge. The odds are someone can.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by tlb   » Wed May 20, 2020 2:46 pm

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tlb wrote:I should have made it clear than I was talking about SDF ships in the Core Worlds of the League (since the thread is the SLN Future). Now that the Silesian Confederation has been broken up, I am not sure who would have the ability to build a vanity fleet in the Verge.

kzt wrote:There are something upwards of 6000 systems in the verge. The odds are someone can.

I accept your numbers, although I do not know specifically who they might be. I also will accept that anyone in the Verge, who is wealthy enough to build warships and cannot reach an accommodation with a polity like Maya or Erewhon or others, does have a need for its own SDF.

But wouldn't it be better to put those grasers in a fleet of LAC's and build a missile heavy defensive fleet similar to Moriarty (if it had been built in a BC body)? A single star system can save money by making most of its fleet sub-light.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 20, 2020 3:08 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:I should have made it clear than I was talking about SDF ships in the Core Worlds of the League (since the thread is the SLN Future). Now that the Silesian Confederation has been broken up, I am not sure who would have the ability to build a vanity fleet in the Verge.

kzt wrote:There are something upwards of 6000 systems in the verge. The odds are someone can.

I accept your numbers, although I do not know specifically who they might be. I also will accept that anyone in the Verge, who is wealthy enough to build warships and cannot reach an accommodation with a polity like Maya or Erewhon or others, does have a need for its own SDF.

But wouldn't it be better to put those grasers in a fleet of LAC's and build a missile heavy defensive fleet similar to Moriarty (if it had been built in a BC body)? A single star system can save money by making most of its fleet sub-light.


Only if those systems bought (and read) the latest copy of "Space Weapons!" Magazine. Otherwise, a LAC is nothing but an over-sized missile pod with a 1/2 a$$ed drive system on it - and a pdlc or 2.

Space warfare has changed, but few have gotten the memo. Expecting the average navy to be "in the know" prior to 1921pd is kind of foolish. After 1923pd, anyone who isn't scrapping all their existing naval planning are the foolish ones.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SLN Future
Post by kzt   » Wed May 20, 2020 3:08 pm

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tlb wrote:But wouldn't it be better to put those grasers in a fleet of LAC's and build a missile heavy defensive fleet similar to Moriarty (if it had been built in a BC body)? A single star system can save money by making most of its fleet sub-light.

That kind of restricts my ability to engage in late night acquisitions, sorry I meant legitimate power projection.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 20, 2020 3:54 pm

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tlb wrote:I should have made it clear than I was talking about SDF ships in the Core Worlds of the League (since the thread is the SLN Future). Now that the Silesian Confederation has been broken up, I am not sure who would have the ability to build a vanity fleet in the Verge.


Why not? Manticore of the 1530s could drum up the industry to build their own ships, albeit with imported parts they couldn't (yet) produce. And though Manticore and Haven were definitely the exception, not the rule, on what a Verge nation is, why is Silesia also an exception? Can't there be other not-so-poor not-as-rich agglomeration of systems, corrupt through-and-through, that rivals the SC? Silesia was a problem even before the discovery of the MWHJ, so I don't see what's special about it.

For that matter, Haven was already Haven before the MWHJ, so can there be other entities that resemble the old Republic clear across the League? Haven and Manticore can't have been the only two well-funded colonisation expeditions. I'm not doubting there are more unlucky expeditions like Grayson, Nuncio, and Calvin, but there has to be a few more that actually made it through. I mean, there's Mannerheim, for one.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by Theemile   » Wed May 20, 2020 4:24 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
tlb wrote:I should have made it clear than I was talking about SDF ships in the Core Worlds of the League (since the thread is the SLN Future). Now that the Silesian Confederation has been broken up, I am not sure who would have the ability to build a vanity fleet in the Verge.


Why not? Manticore of the 1530s could drum up the industry to build their own ships, albeit with imported parts they couldn't (yet) produce. And though Manticore and Haven were definitely the exception, not the rule, on what a Verge nation is, why is Silesia also an exception? Can't there be other not-so-poor not-as-rich agglomeration of systems, corrupt through-and-through, that rivals the SC? Silesia was a problem even before the discovery of the MWHJ, so I don't see what's special about it.

For that matter, Haven was already Haven before the MWHJ, so can there be other entities that resemble the old Republic clear across the League? Haven and Manticore can't have been the only two well-funded colonisation expeditions. I'm not doubting there are more unlucky expeditions like Grayson, Nuncio, and Calvin, but there has to be a few more that actually made it through. I mean, there's Mannerheim, for one.


Unfortunately, when asking David if there was another Manticore in another quadrant of the verge, he told us that the Haven Quadrant is an oddity. The rest of the Verge is made up of mostly 1-3 star polities. Silesia and Haven are the exceptions, not the rule. With the Andermani Empire, Asgerd, Manticore, and now Maya, almost all the large extra-solarian polities are all in the Haven quadrant. Certainly, the #2,3, and 4 navies were all in the Haven Quadrant in 1905.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SLN Future
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed May 20, 2020 9:53 pm

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Theemile wrote:Unfortunately, when asking David if there was another Manticore in another quadrant of the verge, he told us that the Haven Quadrant is an oddity. The rest of the Verge is made up of mostly 1-3 star polities. Silesia and Haven are the exceptions, not the rule. With the Andermani Empire, Asgerd, Manticore, and now Maya, almost all the large extra-solarian polities are all in the Haven quadrant. Certainly, the #2,3, and 4 navies were all in the Haven Quadrant in 1905.


Asgard Association is hardly in the Haven Sector, though I could see how the proximity applies. And I'm not disputing it's an oddity: the well-funded Manticoran and Haven colonisations plus the discovery of the MWHJ definitely made a difference. And maybe that made Silesia bigger than most other Verge agglomerations.

But well-funded colonisations must have happened elsewhere. And improperly-funded ones but still resulting in Silesia-but-smaller even more so. The Rembrandt Trade Union was well on the way to that level, given another 50 years, if the OFS didn't arrive before.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed May 20, 2020 9:55 pm

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kzt wrote:
tlb wrote:But wouldn't it be better to put those grasers in a fleet of LAC's and build a missile heavy defensive fleet similar to Moriarty (if it had been built in a BC body)? A single star system can save money by making most of its fleet sub-light.

That kind of restricts my ability to engage in late night acquisitions, sorry I meant legitimate power projection.



I'm beginning to understand the economics of Honorverse piracy. The pirates use relatively technologically advanced starships to rob their neighbors. I've been struggling to understand how they get the money to buy their ships much less have lucrative markets for black market goods. It isn't as if they are robbing galleons of their Gold on the Spanish main. Slaves should not be that valuable either. What would be valuable enough to make piracy profitable would be advanced technology machine tools being shipped from the core world's.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by kzt   » Wed May 20, 2020 10:32 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I'm beginning to understand the economics of Honorverse piracy. The pirates use relatively technologically advanced starships to rob their neighbors. I've been struggling to understand how they get the money to buy their ships much less have lucrative markets for black market goods. It isn't as if they are robbing galleons of their Gold on the Spanish main. Slaves should not be that valuable either. What would be valuable enough to make piracy profitable would be advanced technology machine tools being shipped from the core world's.

It's like the guy who was telling us "They can't be crypto mining on my servers, I don't have an GPUs! You can't make money without GPUs!"

Well, sure. If you are paying for the hardware and the power. But if you are using someone else's hardware and power...
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Re: SLN Future
Post by Sigs   » Thu May 21, 2020 1:16 am

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tlb wrote:Please refresh my memory, what fighting is about to start? I can imagine systems holding back their SDF ships to defend their own planet; but not just so they do not get damaged. If the system governments are smart, then they are sending officers to the training classes of major powers and are engaged in war-gaming with friendly powers. The absolute worst thing that they could do is have a few big ships for prestige only and not have their people trained as best as can be done to use those ships. I cannot believe core worlds with SDF ships would not have them train with the SLN, at a minimum.


Why would they need them to be in fighting shape? Until October 1921 the SLN was the undisputed single most powerful nation in existence according to the League, its easy to see how one of the core navies remained after the SL was created and at some point it just became a symbol of the core system and its status as a power before the League, how it predates the SLN... It could have ended up after centuries more of a social club than a military, no threats and even if here were threats the SLN is but a call away to help them and no one is stupid enough to go to war with the SL. Some Shell systems further from the Core SLN bases that hold the SD's on the other hand might have actual navies to defend them while the SLN redeploys to face the threat and as such might have actual competent navies even if its only an SD or two.
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