SLN Future

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Indeed, but the absolute worst could happen. The worlds that have more than a few ships of the wall probably know how to fight, but those that have one or two only may not want to lose them.

The fighting is one of the hypothetical situations from the OP: that there is no SLN any more, but only SDFs that can be nationalised in case of need.

SDs/DNs are designed to fight in formations, so owning one isn't half as effective as owning two, It's like 1/4 or less.

kzt wrote:SDs/DNs are designed to fight in formations, so owning one isn't half as effective as owning two, It's like 1/4 or less.

Don't tell me. Tell that to the governments that bought only one or two. Whether they set out to buy just a division or they changed their minds half-way doesn't the outcome.

The RF was crafted over at least a couple of hundred years to become the refuge and protector of systems after the SL ends up destroyed through the machinations of the Alignment. From what we have seen, the Mannerheim Navy would be the base of RFN (possibly they would-being really good at propaganda call the RFSDF even though would fairly quicky become more the Star Naton than an alliance.

They -the RF - have at least the MSDF plus probably a few more ships- and many other the MSDF will perhaps not be much better that used SLN or some variation of the Technodyne SLN "export" models. Good enough against garden-variety pirates

The RF was not designed to coerce systems to join them but to be a defensive alliance and trading league (initialy).

Have you considered that the vast majority of the systems that will now no longer be directly controlled by the League via OFS or who's governments owe their continued power (and protection from internal and external problems) to OFS and/or FF are going to be effectively naked against casual piracy and agressive neighbors?
Recall that the reason Firebrand found himself stranded with Indy an the local rebelion group was one Transtellar made the opening move to take over the control of the planet from another and it quickly became a fight between local government, it's primarly local political (with police/miilatary friends) opponent and the exisitng Transtellar operation.

Most system are going to have difficlty keeping a modern (modern SLN, not GA) destroyer in good maintenance and operations condition let alone a squadron - or some CAs or BC or -heaven help them- a 50yr old SD. Just not anything local that can do more then minimal mantainace and light repair work. Where do you repair a milliatary impeller node, let alone rebuild one if you don't even have local capasity to do that kind of work on a commercial freighter.
Most systems will be scrambling to try and keep their existing commercial traffic and contacts with clients or suppliers. If they are going to do that or attract new traffic they are going to have to make themselves attractive to it. The same kinds of attractive that can bring vultures and other problems. At the very least, the GA with agreements with others, will need to provide some visable commerce protection. Beowulf had just suffered the major loss of the three habitats but it does have a signifcant SDF. It also still has most of it manufacturing capasity. I suspect Beowulf is about to start replacing it's SDF ships with RMN versions. That would make it a possible source of lighter warships for it's tradeing partners along with a face of the GA on that side of th terminus doing more commerce protection over more extended rages.

Nobody much outside the GA has anything like the RMN, GSN, RHN LACs let alone CLACS and isn't going to for a while. The ideas are out there but the ability to catch up on the tec is a different discussion.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:Actually, the military arm of the OFS was the Gendarmie. Frontier Fleet was the SLN force assigned to police the Frontiers, and seconded to the regional Governor for their use in police keeping and paroling neighboring polities. AS such, the Frontier Fleet wasassigned by the regional governors to provide assistance to the OFS in their territories.

Yes, it is a technicality, but an important one - the FF was not OFS, even if it was forced to do it's bidding. Because of this, the FF hierarchy had a different mindset than OFS did - even if they could not do anything about it.

I'm not so sure I can agree with that, if my intuition and common sense is in order, or my understanding of how things work in the real world.

Or, if what's in a name can be trusted ...

It is an OFFICE of (FRONTIER) SECURITY.

If I'm a civilian wanting to complain or whatever about something going on in the frontier, I go to the Office that houses the entity. The Office of Frontier Security.

If the job is too big, they have an assistant in the form of FRONTIER Fleet.

Frontier Fleet is the naval arm of the civilian body that is OFS.

It is the way my twisted brain twists it. ::shrug::

Independent of how you perceive it, David has said repeatedly that OFS is NOT the Boss of Frontier Fleet. They are 2 separate operations who report to separate SL Offices (and Mandarins). The org chart doesn't even have a dotted line at the FF/OFS level. It is only the local FF detachments which report to the local Governors (or reinforcements ordered to support said governors), that are seconded to support OFS operations. The overlap of the word Frontier in their names is the overlap of their area of operations - the SL Frontier.

Anyone who percieves them as a threat, probably sees them as a singular threat, as an endangered OFS office will ring sufficient bells to get FF units to show up, as well as OFS Intervention Battalions.

cthia wrote:Right or wrong, I view OFS as the civilian arm responsible for FF, to help prevent what happened in our own country ...

Why Civilian Control of the Military?
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

*** snip ***

The country survived the Civil War with the idea of civilian control of the military still intact. The military shrank in size and was mostly in the West. Military officers shied away from politics and many even refused to vote, feeling that this would somehow influence their service.

This held true through World War II. There was such separation that after World War II, Democratic President Harry S. Truman offered to give the Democratic nomination for president in 1948 to General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower. Ike, a graduate of West Point, had never voted. People did not know his party affiliation. He turned down Truman's offer, but in 1952 did run for president -- as a Republican.

Today, service members of all ranks are encouraged to vote. The military vote in Florida in this past election was crucial. Once they vote, however, soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen are expected to forget their party affiliations and follow the orders of the civilian leaders regardless of the party.

Military members swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States." One of the more successful aspects of that document is civilian control of the military.

What I need is an explanation of what you mean by your words that I have highlighted. I can read meaning into them, but refuse to believe the result is what you actually intended; I think civilian control of the military is good, but those words seem to saying something else.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

kzt wrote:SDs/DNs are designed to fight in formations, so owning one isn't half as effective as owning two, It's like 1/4 or less.

Don't tell me. Tell that to the governments that bought only one or two. Whether they set out to buy just a division or they changed their minds half-way doesn't the outcome.

Actually, that is kinda the point - there are not that many polities with just 1 Waller. Less the 1% of all the Honorverse naves (~25) can field 8 OR MORE wallers. Somewhere between 1 and 2% (25-50 navies) can field 1-7. In all - there are probably around 200 (maybe fewer) wallers in these navies combined. This includes old BBs, homegown oversized BCs, castoff DNs and SDs.

I doubt many are SDs, and most of these ships will be old, undersized, behind the tech curve, or not maintained properly - simply because anyone who could afford the infrastructure to maintain, update and build new, proper capital ships, would not build just 1 or 2. Anything new is going to be something like an oversized BC - Big, but not built to the same standards as an actual waller, with undersized weapons and non-optimized armoring schemes. Great for terrorizing your CA wielding neighbor, but not a threat against a proper navy.

Theemile wrote:Anything new is going to be something like an oversized BC - Big, but not built to the same standards as an actual waller, with undersized weapons and non-optimized armoring schemes. Great for terrorizing your CA wielding neighbor, but not a threat against a proper navy.

Until the GA demonstrated how inferior the Solarian ships were, I would expect anything new to be built to the latest Solarian plans. I do not know what they will do now.

tlb wrote:

Theemile wrote:Anything new is going to be something like an oversized BC - Big, but not built to the same standards as an actual waller, with undersized weapons and non-optimized armoring schemes. Great for terrorizing your CA wielding neighbor, but not a threat against a proper navy.

Until the GA demonstrated how inferior the Solarian ships were, I would expect anything new to be built to the latest Solarian plans. I do not know what they will do now.

For the most part, I believe you are correct historically, but there have been numerous SLN references to dealing with oversized/overgunned ships in the Verge, including the reaction to the Nike Class BCs, which amounted to "look, another Verge navy built a big-a$$ BC to counter us." So other Navies are doing it, even if it is just a 1.5 Mton BC built with spare CA parts. (and in reality, isn't the equal of a 800Kton BC from a 1st rate navy, despite it's size)

I expect if any verge polity exists with the ability to build a BB or 2 as a prestige unit, most likely it will borrow as many BC parts as possible - just because that is what is on hand, what can be easily acquired on the open market, and the existing shipyards have the tools to build. Let's face it Looking for SD grasers will cause suppliers (and SLN monitors) to take notice - but ordering BC spinal grasers, and placing them in a BB's broadside, well, that will slip through the cracks.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

kzt wrote:SDs/DNs are designed to fight in formations, so owning one isn't half as effective as owning two, It's like 1/4 or less.

Don't tell me. Tell that to the governments that bought only one or two. Whether they set out to buy just a division or they changed their minds half-way doesn't the outcome.

Italy just bought two aircraft carriers when they are buying only enough F-35B for one.

Great Britain just bought two aircraft carriers but no escort ships to go with them.

Theemile wrote:Anything new is going to be something like an oversized BC - Big, but not built to the same standards as an actual waller, with undersized weapons and non-optimized armoring schemes. Great for terrorizing your CA wielding neighbor, but not a threat against a proper navy.

tlb wrote:Until the GA demonstrated how inferior the Solarian ships were, I would expect anything new to be built to the latest Solarian plans. I do not know what they will do now.

Theemile wrote:For the most part, I believe you are correct historically, but there have been numerous SLN references to dealing with oversized/overgunned ships in the Verge, including the reaction to the Nike Class BCs, which amounted to "look, another Verge navy built a big-a$$ BC to counter us." So other Navies are doing it, even if it is just a 1.5 Mton BC built with spare CA parts. (and in reality, isn't the equal of a 800Kton BC from a 1st rate navy, despite it's size)

I expect if any verge polity exists with the ability to build a BB or 2 as a prestige unit, most likely it will borrow as many BC parts as possible - just because that is what is on hand, what can be easily acquired on the open market, and the existing shipyards have the tools to build. Let's face it Looking for SD grasers will cause suppliers (and SLN monitors) to take notice - but ordering BC spinal grasers, and placing them in a BB's broadside, well, that will slip through the cracks.

I should have made it clear than I was talking about SDF ships in the Core Worlds of the League (since the thread is the SLN Future). Now that the Silesian Confederation has been broken up, I am not sure who would have the ability to build a vanity fleet in the Verge.