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SLN Future

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Re: SLN Future
Post by Sigs   » Tue May 19, 2020 7:53 am

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kzt wrote:Umm, because they shut them down in have them in a parking orbit. They need a shipyard to bring them back into operation. And there are none.
So Between the RMN, GSN, RHN, BSDF there aren't say...36 SD's sitting around with nothing much to do? And I highly doubt those 36 SD's are the only once still in acting service within the GA navies.

OH, and I'd bet the magazines were emptied when they were parked, and then someone blew up the ammunition stockpiles of old SDM SD missiles, along with all the other stockpiled missiles, a little while ago. So no missiles.
I bet no one blew up the RHN's ammunition stockpiles.

So sure. You could decommission five modern SD(P) to man an old obsolete SD. If you had a shipyard to bring them back into service or missiles with which to arm them.
Or and this is a crazy idea but you can use the once from the BSDF which are still in commission, get mixed alliance crews in them and its magic...no shipyards.


Of which you have none.
In Manticore and Grayson BUT Manticore and Grayson are NOT the Grand Alliance, they are MEMBERS of the grand Alliance. Can you remind me which member has a secret hidden base with a lot of shipyards, and which member on top of having the hidden shipyards has a bunch of shipyards all through their territory that were interestingly enough not destroyed by the MAN? I can think of at least one GA member who has their missile manufacturing, ammunition stockpiles and shipyard space to reactivate SD's if the need should come up. Which they wont need to because there are at LEAST 36 SD's in service and likely more between the RHN, GSN, and RMN. And they don't need to reactivate them because they are active and they don't need ammunition because I am going to go out and guess that the BSDF doesn't arm them with dummy rounds just to make it more challenging in battle.


But since it's a dumb idea to shut down five modern ships to man one obsolete ship, and the RMN apparently can't recruit more people because Economy! and Reasons!, no I don't think they will even if they could overcome these issues.
You do realize that the GA has more then one navy? Right? There is the GSN, BSDF, RHN and probably soon the IAN and EN and at least 2 of them still have SD's in service.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by cthia   » Tue May 19, 2020 8:11 am

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Personally, I see nothing wrong with the hierarchy of the SL war machine.

SLN>OFS>FF. Neither of those entities were broken. Only the people responsible for them were broken. The fissure was traced back to the Mandarins who had all the power to recruit, hire and fire. Perhaps what needs to be changed is the hierarchy responsible for overseeing each organization. A better checks and balance. Top brass are simply going to have to get off their butts and get a handle on things. Remember, it worked well before corruption set in; before the almighty dollar started coming in by the freighter loads, which can turn morality green.

The need that would have created OFS still exists. Perhaps more than ever now. I can't see why they'd need to be disbanded. I'd agree to a name change to protect the new entity, sure, but yea.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SLN Future
Post by Potato   » Tue May 19, 2020 8:21 am

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The Grand Alliance’s terms of surrender specifically said OFS must be disbanded.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by cthia   » Tue May 19, 2020 8:40 am

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Potato wrote:The Grand Alliance’s terms of surrender specifically said OFS must be disbanded.

Which is why I agree with a name change. To protect the innocence of a new entity that has risen from the ashes. Besides, when the SLN achieves parity, the gnats out in Neobarbaria won't have a damn thing to say about it. It is crazy that the GA thinks it can demand the SL to forsake a real need of actually protecting it's citizens. Honor was simply consumed with anger. She was stark raving mad. It's insane. That could break the League itself.

Unless! The author is sewing the first seeds of the tree bearing a new sheriff in town. The Renaissance Factor.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SLN Future
Post by Potato   » Tue May 19, 2020 9:04 am

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In what universe was OFS “protecting it’s citizens?” Even under its official charter, the Office of Frontier Security was in the business of going to other star nations and imposing its will. It was never about protecting the Solarian League. And no matter how you dress it up, no one in the Verge is going to be interested in letting anyone from the Core try to meddle in local affairs again. You cannot just sweep literally centuries of abuse under the rug with a new name. And that is even assuming the GA would let the League get away with such a blatant violation of the surrender terms. They are not idiots who would let such a trivial change fly by.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by cthia   » Tue May 19, 2020 10:59 am

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When entities create warfighting machines which are supposed to be controlled by their civilian arm, they must create an overseer that is the intersection of the two. Strategies and logistics questions arise when hiring people to fill those positions. Do you hire complete civilians who have no experience in the military, or do you appoint active duty officers to fill various roles, or do you hire retired naval personnel who are an amalgamation of the two? Active duty personnel may be better equipped to understand the logistics and demand of what is required of the navy. Complete civilians may be less approachable to join the good old boy network. Retired naval personnel may better understand both worlds.

You want me to believe that what OFS became, or was from the onset is what its true civilian masters intended. It's true masters were not the corrupt good ole boy network which was the Mandarins, in theory. Just as the Minister of the Interior was meant to be the overseer of OFS. The various entities became corrupt because the Mandarins were allowed to hold their seats indefinitely.

Right or wrong, I view OFS as the civilian arm responsible for FF, to help prevent what happened in our own country ...


Why Civilian Control of the Military?
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, May 2, 2001 – Visit the DoD "Public Service Recognition Week" web site at http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/publicservice/.

Civilian control of the military is so ingrained in America that we hardly give it a second thought. Most Americans don't realize how special this relationship is and how it has contributed to the country.

The framers of the U.S. Constitution worked to ensure the military would be under civilian control. They did not want to emulate the European experience. The colonies had just fought a war for freedom from Britain. The king controlled the British military, and the framers had no interest in duplicating that system.

When they wrote the Constitution they separated the responsibilities for the military, placing the responsibilities firmly in civilian hands.

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution states that Congress shall have the power "to raise and support Armies …" and "to provide and maintain a Navy." In addition, Congress must provide for the state militias when they are called to federal service.

Article II, Section 2 states, "The President shall be the Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States when called into the actual Service of the United States."

Congress has the power to declare war and to make the rules for governing the military.

So the framers spread responsibilities for the military around. The president and Congress had to work together to use the military.

In the early days of the Republic, before the concept of civilian control of the military sank in, some military officers actively plotted against the government.

Gen. James Wilkinson was the senior military officer from June 15, 1800, to Jan. 27, 1812. He fought in the Revolutionary War and outfitted the Continental Army. He was forced to resign rather than answer charges he embezzled funds. After the Revolution he allied himself with Aaron Burr and went back on active duty.

Wilkinson became a key figure in the plan to induce what was then the "southwest United States" to form a separate nation allied to Spain. He took an oath of allegiance to Spain, spied for his new, secret patron and received an annual Spanish pension of $4,000. He was the governor of the Louisiana Territory from 1805 to 1806.

When his involvement with Burr became common knowledge, Wilkinson turned informant, telling President Jefferson that Burr was plotting to disrupt the Union. He was the chief prosecution witness against Burr and narrowly escaped indictment himself.

He continued as the ranking officer in the Army through 1812, when his incompetence and scheming were finally recognized and he was relieved. Once again an official inquiry left him untouched. He spent his remaining years in Mexico receiving the Spanish stipend.

With the growth of political parties, an officer's political allegiance became important. President John Adams appointed Federalist officers to the military. As Jefferson's private secretary, Army Capt. Meriwether Lewis vetted the "Republican" (later Democratic) credentials of his fellow Army officers.

This reinforced the belief in the U.S. military that officers should not participate in politics. They should follow the orders of the president and the wishes of the Congress no matter who was in power.

The U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y., did much to promulgate this idea. Still, even as more West Pointers joined the Army, some officers played politics.

During the war with Mexico from 1846 to 1848, newspapers made charges that Democratic President James K. Polk did not want to entrust the military to Gen. Winfield Scott or Gen. Zachary Taylor, two Whig generals. The papers were right.

Taylor, the hero of the Battle of Buena Vista, never voted in an election. He never sought or campaigned for any office. Because he hadn't been expecting any good mail from Washington, he refused delivery of the Senate's letter telling him he'd been elected president -- in 1848, recipients paid the postage, not senders.

The American Civil War of 1861-1865 was the period of greatest danger to civilian control of the military. As the war progressed, more and more people called for a military dictatorship. One prime proponent of this was Maj. Gen. Joseph Hooker.

After the Union defeat at the Battle of Fredericksburg, Va., President Abraham Lincoln decided to appoint Hooker as commander of the Army of the Potomac -- the leading army of the Union. He wrote Hooker one of the most amazing letters in American civilian-military relations.

Lincoln said in part: "I have heard, in such way as to believe it, of your recently saying that both the Army and the Government needed a Dictator. Of course it was not for this, but in spite of it, that I have given you the command. Only those generals who gain successes, can set up dictators. What I now ask of you is military success, and I will risk the dictatorship."

Hooker led the Army of the Potomac to defeat in the Battle of Chancellorsville, and he resigned the position just before the Battle of Gettysburg.

Gen. U.S. Grant, on the other hand, had a completely different take on the situation. In 1863, following victories at Vicksburg, Miss. and Chattanooga, Tenn., Democrats tried to recruit Grant as their nominee for president against Lincoln in 1864. Some Republican leaders also tried to get Grant to replace the president. He categorically refused. Grant was elected president in 1868, after he had resigned from the Army.

The country survived the Civil War with the idea of civilian control of the military still intact. The military shrank in size and was mostly in the West. Military officers shied away from politics and many even refused to vote, feeling that this would somehow influence their service.

This held true through World War II. There was such separation that after World War II, Democratic President Harry S. Truman offered to give the Democratic nomination for president in 1948 to General of the Army Dwight D. Eisenhower. Ike, a graduate of West Point, had never voted. People did not know his party affiliation. He turned down Truman's offer, but in 1952 did run for president -- as a Republican.

Today, service members of all ranks are encouraged to vote. The military vote in Florida in this past election was crucial. Once they vote, however, soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen are expected to forget their party affiliations and follow the orders of the civilian leaders regardless of the party.

Military members swear "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States." One of the more successful aspects of that document is civilian control of the military.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: SLN Future
Post by tlb   » Tue May 19, 2020 11:51 am

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cthia wrote:You want me to believe that what OFS became, or was from the onset is what its true civilian masters intended. It's true masters were not the corrupt good ole boy network which was the Mandarins, in theory. Just as the Minister of the Interior was meant to be the overseer of OFS. The various entities became corrupt because the Mandarins were allowed to hold their seats indefinitely.

Right or wrong, I view OFS as the civilian arm responsible for FF, to help prevent what happened in our own country.

Its true masters WERE the Mandarins. It is a characteristic of bureaucracies that they persist; the problem in the Solarian League was that there was no elected control over them, because their funding was normally independent of the Assembly.

Frontier Fleet was the military arm of OFS under the control of the Minister of the Interior. Neither OFS nor FF could have become corrupt, if the Ministry had not become so first.

Why do you think that it is important to "to help prevent what happened in our own country"? The article you quoted seemed like a very good thing to me and I would want that attitude encouraged.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by Theemile   » Tue May 19, 2020 1:22 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:You want me to believe that what OFS became, or was from the onset is what its true civilian masters intended. It's true masters were not the corrupt good ole boy network which was the Mandarins, in theory. Just as the Minister of the Interior was meant to be the overseer of OFS. The various entities became corrupt because the Mandarins were allowed to hold their seats indefinitely.

Right or wrong, I view OFS as the civilian arm responsible for FF, to help prevent what happened in our own country.

Its true masters WERE the Mandarins. It is a characteristic of bureaucracies that they persist; the problem in the Solarian League was that there was no elected control over them, because their funding was normally independent of the Assembly.

Frontier Fleet was the military arm of OFS under the control of the Minister of the Interior. Neither OFS nor FF could have become corrupt, if the Ministry had not become so first.

Why do you think that it is important to "to help prevent what happened in our own country"? The article you quoted seemed like a very good thing to me and I would want that attitude encouraged.


Actually, the military arm of the OFS was the Gendarmie. Frontier Fleet was the SLN force assigned to police the Frontiers, and seconded to the regional Governor for their use in police keeping and paroling neighboring polities. AS such, the Frontier Fleet wasassigned by the regional governors to provide assistance to the OFS in their territories.

Yes, it is a technicality, but an important one - the FF was not OFS, even if it was forced to do it's bidding. Because of this, the FF hierarchy had a different mindset than OFS did - even if they could not do anything about it.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SLN Future
Post by tlb   » Tue May 19, 2020 2:11 pm

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Theemile wrote:Actually, the military arm of the OFS was the Gendarmie. Frontier Fleet was the SLN force assigned to police the Frontiers, and seconded to the regional Governor for their use in police keeping and paroling neighboring polities. AS such, the Frontier Fleet wasassigned by the regional governors to provide assistance to the OFS in their territories.

Yes, it is a technicality, but an important one - the FF was not OFS, even if it was forced to do it's bidding. Because of this, the FF hierarchy had a different mindset than OFS did - even if they could not do anything about it.

I did not realize that the Gendarmie was considered a military force. When I checked, I found this in Wikipedia:
A gendarmerie is a military force with law enforcement duties among the civilian population. In France and some Francophone nations, the gendarmerie is a branch of the armed forces responsible for internal security in parts of the territory (primarily in rural areas and small towns in the case of France) with additional duties as a military police for the armed forces.
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Re: SLN Future
Post by kzt   » Tue May 19, 2020 2:18 pm

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France is not the US with an accent. They have a bunch of different overlapping national and regional police forces. Some are military, some are not.

Much of Europe has a military-type national police force.
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