SLN Future

Sigs wrote:I am not suggesting that the SL will disband the SLN...at least not until they have something better up and running to replace it, what I am pointing out is that the SLN is so corrupt, incompetent, arrogant and immoral as an organization they will need massive overhaul.

That is the notion I question. I don't think the SLN's officers - as a whole - were any of those things. They were simply loyal, and, well, a bit snookered and prejudiced against their enemy. What were they to do in the midst of a war? Mutiny? The adjectives you chose should be applied to the Mandarins, not the navy they - and the MA - moved about like pawns. If anything, the officers who joined the SLN for truth, justice and the original Solarian way, are as much the victim as any. Sure, a few high ranking officers were corrupt and padding their pockets. But you can't blame the average officer for any of that. I'm sure the average officer in anyone's navy isn't a Sunday School teacher, but what navy doesn't have officers who store illegal contraband, make a little money on the side, smoke illegal substances, yatta yatta yatta.

I'm basing this on the fact that corruption usually begins at the top. Plus the fact that textev gave us a look into the morals of at least some of the officers. Once when they were tasked with bombarding that planet where they were sickened with a bad taste in their mouth. And again in UH with their despicable orders.

I know that the charge of "War Crime" doesn't exonerate you simply because you were following orders. But there is a fine line there, somewhere, between doing the right thing and mutiny.

It is the same poison emanating from the top faced by the, few IMO, morally invested Peep officers, who detested their regime and the despicable things the scum at the top required of them.

Following Ransom's orders couldn't have been any better than following the Mandarin's. Perhaps, on a more personal level regarding Ransom's treatment of Honor, it was worse.

People seem to be back on topic discussing the future of the SLN. Here is how I see a re-formed SLN being composed:

1) The SLN will completely reorganize their naval forces. No longer will there be a Battle Fleet and a Frontier Fleet. Instead, there will an Active Duty Fleet and a Guard Fleet. The ADF will have its HQ in the Sol system (of course), but will have major naval bases spread throughout SL space so that 90% or so of the member systems are within 2 weeks transit. The GF will be more akin to the American National Guard, with the units based in each member's systems and manned by the inhabitants of that system. Each regional base will be supported by multiple systems capable of building and servicing every class of ship, and those systems will get steady orders for work.

2) The order of battle will also change. Instead of having 8,000+ SDs, the SL will instead realize it makes a lot more sense to have a much smaller number of active ships and instead pursue constant evolution and change. That is, ships will be designed to last for 100 years, not 500. They will then be sold for scrap, or used for other purposes.

3) I could see the ADF settling on the following as the official order of battle:
A) 1 Division of SDs per member system.
B) 1 CLAC (and LACs) per member system.
C) 2 Division of BCs per member system.
D) 2 Division of HCs per member system.
E) 1 Squadron (16 ships) of CA/DD per member system.

Each regional HQ will have forces assigned to it roughly proportionate to the number of member systems in its region, minus 10%. The extra 10% from each region will be based in the Sol system as the ready reserve able to respond to any any area of need, or pursue offensive operations outside of SL space.

4) Each member system will be required to have as their reserve (part of the GF), the following:
A) 1 CLAC (and LACs).
B) 1 Division of BCs.
C) 1 Division of HCs.
D) 1 Division (4 ships) of CA.
E) 1 Division (4 ships) of DD.

Each member system could, of course, build additional ships. The SL would cover 75% of the costs of the required ships. The SL would also cover 50% of the costs (based on ADF averages) for each system to build and maintain the order of battle as described in part 3, in addition to the ships described in this part.

5) Each regional base will also have a corresponding R&D facility, and while each facility will share information and findings each facility will be semi-autonomous in what it can research and develop. By that I mean, while Sol can always require research to be done in specific areas, it cannot control more than 50% of the research being done. Sol also cannot forbid or prevent research from being done into any field (provided it is legal, e.g. genetic slavery cannot be done).

Additionally, each regional base will have autonomy in building prototypes of new warships, and can build and maintain up to 1 full squadron of every class of ship of experimental designs. This provision, of course, is to help the SL spur new research and design and stop resting on its laurels.

6) The regional fleets will be required, at least once every 2 years, to have a large contingent of its order of battle participate in combat exercise against a different regional base. The exercise will be held at a third regional base, with the hosting base writing the rules and providing the refs. This is to spur the commanders and crew to continue refining their skills.

That's as far as I've gotten so far. Thoughts?

Erls wrote:People seem to be back on topic discussing the future of the SLN. Here is how I see a re-formed SLN being composed:

1) The SLN will completely reorganize their naval forces. No longer will there be a Battle Fleet and a Frontier Fleet. Instead, there will an Active Duty Fleet and a Guard Fleet. The ADF will have its HQ in the Sol system (of course), but will have major naval bases spread throughout SL space so that 90% or so of the member systems are within 2 weeks transit. The GF will be more akin to the American National Guard, with the units based in each member's systems and manned by the inhabitants of that system. Each regional base will be supported by multiple systems capable of building and servicing every class of ship, and those systems will get steady orders for work.

Quick reality check: 2 weeks transit, not counting wormholes or streak drive, seems to be about 100 light-years (1 light-century) [Earth-Beowulf is 50 light-years and takes about a week]. So each base would cover a volume of 4/3 * pi * 1^3 = 4.2 cubic light-centuries. The SL appears to be roughly spherical with a radius of 350-400 light-years. 4 cubed is 64, so that would mean 64 bases for the SLN. Seems doable.

How many ships in each base? 2 SD squadrons are 16 ships, so 512 ships total. If you add CLAC squadron, that's 768 ships of the wall dispersed through out the volume of the League. And this is just Quick Reaction Forces.

3) I could see the ADF settling on the following as the official order of battle:
A) 1 Division of SDs per member system.
B) 1 CLAC (and LACs) per member system.
C) 2 Division of BCs per member system.
D) 2 Division of HCs per member system.
E) 1 Squadron (16 ships) of CA/DD per member system.

[note: CA is heavy cruiser; CL is a light cruiser]

Again, quick reality check: if we take the a 50% independence rate from current SL, that leaves about 850 member systems. That would add up to:
A) 1700 SDs
B) 1700 CLACs and LAC complements
C) 3400 BCs
D) 3400 CAs
E) 6800 CLs plus 6800 DDs

(One squadron is 8 ships, so I assume you meant one squadron of each when you said 16 ships)

Considering that CLACs are waller-sized, this is nearly doubling the SLN's current wall. I also suspect it's doubling the BC count. And we're talking about an SL that is half the current League.

I think your numbers are too high. Not impossible, mind you, and maybe even warranted if it now needs to contend with a scenario in which all other navies in existence are against it. But may be a hard sell.

4) Each member system will be required to have as their reserve (part of the GF), the following:
A) 1 CLAC (and LACs).
B) 1 Division of BCs.
C) 1 Division of HCs.
D) 1 Division (4 ships) of CA.
E) 1 Division (4 ships) of DD.

All member systems are not created equal.

Think of systems in the Outer Shell that are no richer than Split or Montana. Maintaining one CLAC and a division of BCs may be too much for them. Unless the League government is funding this, it's simply not going to happen.

At the same time, as kzt wrote above, a quarter of the Core systems are probably able to build a hundred SDs and keep them running without their economies suffering for it.

So I think that any military investment by the systems themselves needs to be proportional to the Gross System Product, like NATO is today (2% expenditure). And even if we look at NATO today, you'll get a lot of members that don't rise to their obligations.

[Note: The SL might also dictate other investment levels, like 6% on education, 0.5% on pure science and research, 3% on health, etc.]

5) Each regional base will also have a corresponding R&D facility, and while each facility will share information and findings each facility will be semi-autonomous in what it can research and develop. By that I mean, while Sol can always require research to be done in specific areas, it cannot control more than 50% of the research being done. Sol also cannot forbid or prevent research from being done into any field (provided it is legal, e.g. genetic slavery cannot be done).

Additionally, each regional base will have autonomy in building prototypes of new warships, and can build and maintain up to 1 full squadron of every class of ship of experimental designs. This provision, of course, is to help the SL spur new research and design and stop resting on its laurels.

Good idea, a little bit of competition to spur development.

6) The regional fleets will be required, at least once every 2 years, to have a large contingent of its order of battle participate in combat exercise against a different regional base. The exercise will be held at a third regional base, with the hosting base writing the rules and providing the refs. This is to spur the commanders and crew to continue refining their skills.

That's as far as I've gotten so far. Thoughts?

Do you see a need for rotating fleets?

tlb wrote:

kzt wrote:Very thankful indeed. Like that planet where someone dropped by and stole their orbital infrastructure, prior to their requesting the SL to help them out.

Sigs wrote: Sorry you lost me here.

KZT is referencing one of the stories of the planets that were struggling under corporate control in a recent book. Pirates actually came in and stole all of the orbital industry, as a result they had to request assistance from OFS. The pirates were named, so it was not a covert operation by FF.

Why wouldn't a covert FF operation use a fake name?

(the book in question is _Shadow of Victory_).

kzt wrote:Very thankful indeed. Like that planet where someone dropped by and stole their orbital infrastructure, prior to their requesting the SL to help them out.

Sigs wrote: Sorry you lost me here.

tlb wrote:KZT is referencing one of the stories of the planets that were struggling under corporate control in a recent book. Pirates actually came in and stole all of the orbital industry, as a result they had to request assistance from OFS. The pirates were named, so it was not a covert operation by FF.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Why wouldn't a covert FF operation use a fake name?

(the book in question is _Shadow of Victory_).

My reading of the story, which could easily be wrong, was that the pirates had a named existence before, during and after the attack that forced the call for assistance. If that is correct, then the criminal organization was not a one-shot deal to force that planet into the web of OFS.

tlb wrote:My reading of the story, which could easily be wrong, was that the pirates had a named existence before, during and after the attack that forced the call for assistance. If that is correct, then the criminal organization was not a one-shot deal to force that planet into the web of OFS.

They basically were a gang of robbers made a living by robing systems that had failed to either have a bunch of guys with guns or have a bunch of friends with guns. I'd assume that eventually they will suffer a catastrophic victim selection error.

The verge is composed of somewere between 6000 and 20,000 systems IIRC, spread over an absurdly huge amount of space. That forms a huge hollow sphere around the SL, and the GA is a long, long way from the far side.

Given that MOST of the verge is at least a month away from Manticore and that you typically need three ships assigned to the mission to have one constantly deployed it's a big problem to try to provide any sort of security. The SLN had about 10,000 vessels (ranging from DDs to BCs) assigned to this mission, and the SLN had bases inside the sphere, not far outside the sphere.

You need the better part of a thousand warships assigned to the mission to visit each of 6000 systems once a year with one warship. And by visit I mean pop out of hyper and spend a few hours there before dashing off the the next system. Which isn't going to detect that the System President's daughter has a hand over her mouth and a gun barrel stuck in her ear as he tells you how everything is just fine.

And if something bad was to happen to one of your warships it will be months before you'll even begin to suspect a problem.

Notice how much of a problem Silesia was to the RMN, and that was like 60 systems in a dense cluster weeks travel away from the SKM, not thousands widely spread out and many months of travel away.

kzt wrote:Every core world can build a Beowulf scale fleet.

Eventually, sure. But most core worlds don't even have major civilian shipyards, let alone military ones (and defense contractors that build wallers for export have limited capacity). So it's going to take a while.

kzt wrote:Probably 25% could build a SKM 1905 sized fleet without a lot of issues.

Since the complete list of single-system polities with an SKM 1905-sized fleets is Manticore, and the only single-system policy to have even 1/3 as many wallers was 2nd war-era Grayson (even Beowulf is barely within an order of magnitude), I'm going to say no on this.

drothgery wrote:Since the complete list of single-system polities with an SKM 1905-sized fleets is Manticore, and the only single-system policy to have even 1/3 as many wallers was 2nd war-era Grayson (even Beowulf is barely within an order of magnitude), I'm going to say no on this.

IIRC, the average core world is 2-3x the population of Manticore. Some have over 30 billion, ten times that of Manticore.

As was noted, the Manticore home system had the highest per-capita GSP. It does not have the highest GSP. And one of the characteristics of the SKM in 1905 was fairly low taxes.

drothgery wrote:

kzt wrote:Every core world can build a Beowulf scale fleet.

Eventually, sure. But most core worlds don't even have major civilian shipyards, let alone military ones (and defense contractors that build wallers for export have limited capacity). So it's going to take a while.

kzt wrote:Probably 25% could build a SKM 1905 sized fleet without a lot of issues.

Since the complete list of single-system polities with an SKM 1905-sized fleets is Manticore, and the only single-system policy to have even 1/3 as many wallers was 2nd war-era Grayson (even Beowulf is barely within an order of magnitude), I'm going to say no on this.

Certainly they would first need to build a major shipyard; but isn't the current situation due to a lack of motive and not a lack of either technical expertise or financial ability? The core worlds were comfortable with the protection offered by their Navy and so felt no need to create a major SDF.

tlb wrote:Certainly they would first need to build a major shipyard; but isn't the current situation due to a lack of motive and not a lack of either technical expertise or financial ability? The core worlds were comfortable with the protection offered by their Navy and so felt no need to create a major SDF.

That's, per David, at most a two to three year project. See the timeline projected to rebuild the RMN shipbuilding capability after the entire physical plant and most of the staff, from engineers to production workers, were obliterated.