?

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:Redundancy in compensator design isn't practical because it would still be subject to the technology. Technology operates on a time factor. Any time it would take for the auxillary system to kick in would be way too much.

If it was possible I guess we would have seen ships with redundant compensators.

But as you say, if it's feasible to have 2 compensators on a ship - if there is even a slight delay in the backup kicking in everything will be subject to 100's of gees for a very short period. I do wonder how meatbags would react to those forces, even for a couple of microseconds.

But it's entirely possible that the physics behind compensators doesn't allow for redundancy.

Indeed, and thinking about it, it probably isn't feasible to have both compensators operating simultaneously for the same reason imposed by the reaction time of the components given above.* If you have both compensators operating at once, you'd somehow have to "sync" both compensators. A slight misalignment (npi) and you're dead meat. Think being the object of a severe tug of war between two angry King Kongs. You could die just as violently without a failure, simply with a sync problem. That design would probably be more dangerous than a single compensator.

*A design I once considered.

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cthia wrote:Redundancy in compensator design isn't practical because it would still be subject to the technology. Technology operates on a time factor. Any time it would take for the auxillary system to kick in would be way too much.

Joat42 wrote:If it was possible I guess we would have seen ships with redundant compensators.

But as you say, if it's feasible to have 2 compensators on a ship - if there is even a slight delay in the backup kicking in everything will be subject to 100's of gees for a very short period. I do wonder how meatbags would react to those forces, even for a couple of microseconds.

But it's entirely possible that the physics behind compensators doesn't allow for redundancy.

cthia wrote:Indeed, thinking about it, it probably isn't feasible to have two compensators operating simultaneously for the same reason imposed by the reaction time of the components given above.* If you have both compensators operating at once, you'd somehow have to "sync" both compensators. A slight misalignment (npi) and you're dead meat. Think being the object of a severe tug of war between two angry King Kongs. You could die just as violently without a failure, simply with a sync problem. That design would probably be more dangerous than a single compensator.

*A design I once considered.

From earlier in this thread:

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think a multi-compensator designs been asked about enough to be a dead horse. But RFC has indicated that no you can'd do that. Nor can you stack the effects of compensators and grav plates, not any other tricks anybody's thought to ask to get around the grav plate / compensator limits.

cthia wrote:Redundancy in compensator design isn't practical because it would still be subject to the technology. Technology operates on a time factor. Any time it would take for the auxillary system to kick in would be way too much.

Joat42 wrote:If it was possible I guess we would have seen ships with redundant compensators.

But as you say, if it's feasible to have 2 compensators on a ship - if there is even a slight delay in the backup kicking in everything will be subject to 100's of gees for a very short period. I do wonder how meatbags would react to those forces, even for a couple of microseconds.

But it's entirely possible that the physics behind compensators doesn't allow for redundancy.

cthia wrote:Indeed, thinking about it, it probably isn't feasible to have two compensators operating simultaneously for the same reason imposed by the reaction time of the components given above.* If you have both compensators operating at once, you'd somehow have to "sync" both compensators. A slight misalignment (npi) and you're dead meat. Think being the object of a severe tug of war between two angry King Kongs. You could die just as violently without a failure, simply with a sync problem. That design would probably be more dangerous than a single compensator.

*A design I once considered.

tlb wrote:From earlier in this thread:

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't think a multi-compensator designs been asked about enough to be a dead horse. But RFC has indicated that no you can'd do that. Nor can you stack the effects of compensators and grav plates, not any other tricks anybody's thought to ask to get around the grav plate / compensator limits.

A multi-compensator design could be implemented in two different ways. 1. As an alternate system that kicks in like a backup power supply. 2. Operating simultaneously in case one fails.

I was simply taking a stab at WHY RFC said no.

Grayson's compensator design was adopted by the RMN, although it was bulkier. Is it explained exactly what that difference entails which makes higher accelerations achievable? And is it still bulkier than the Manty design? HoS?

cthia wrote:Grayson's compensator design was adopted by the RMN, although it was bulkier. Is it explained exactly what that difference entails which makes higher accelerations achievable? And is it still bulkier than the Manty design? HoS?

Just that they took a different approach that was slightly more efficient. I got the impression that the size was mostly due to Grayson's lower tech base - so I'd assume that once Manticore was able to build designs based on Grayson's approach that the size would be much more in line with Manticore's older units.

But I don't remember anything said about compensator size after that (until we got to the Streak drive which is said to significantly larger than normal hyper generators)

cthia wrote:Grayson's compensator design was adopted by the RMN, although it was bulkier. Is it explained exactly what that difference entails which makes higher accelerations achievable? And is it still bulkier than the Manty design? HoS?

Jonathan_S wrote:Just that they took a different approach that was slightly more efficient. I got the impression that the size was mostly due to Grayson's lower tech base - so I'd assume that once Manticore was able to build designs based on Grayson's approach that the size would be much more in line with Manticore's older units.

But I don't remember anything said about compensator size after that (until we got to the Streak drive which is said to significantly larger than normal hyper generators)

But a bigger hyper drive generator does not mean a bigger compensator is needed. The generator has nothing to do with acceleration.

tlb wrote:But a bigger hyper drive generator does not mean a bigger compensator is needed. The generator has nothing to do with acceleration.

Total brain fart - posting while distracted. You're right. That was a larger than normal device - but a totally different one.

Thanks. It's simply that I didn't get another memo. Namely that Grayson's compensator design was also better; and not simply their reactor design. Grayson also began to lead the pact in ship design too. They also managed to somehow equal Manty build rates.

All of their industry leading prowess snuck up on me. Taken in dribs and drabs, I didn't realize that Grayson is so technologically advanced. Protector Benjamin is the only Grayson who studied off planet. Which means Grayson has a heck of an education system. Graysons education seems to surpass the Havenites as well. Lil ol Grayson? See what happens when you let go and let God?

Grayson's overall tech base snuck up on me like a Mesan under stealth.

I wonder what other accomplishments coming out of Grayson flew under my radar.

cthia wrote:Thanks. It's simply that I didn't get another memo. Namely that Grayson's compensator design was also better; and not simply their reactor design. Grayson also began to lead the pact in ship design too. They also managed to somehow equal Manty build rates.

All of their industry leading prowess snuck up on me. Taken in dribs and drabs, I didn't realize that Grayson is so technologically advanced. Protector Benjamin is the only Grayson who studied off planet. Which means Grayson has a heck of an education system. Graysons education seems to surpass the Havenites as well. Lil ol Grayson? See what happens when you let go and let God?

Grayson's overall tech base snuck up on me like a Mesan under stealth.

All of this was done with Manticoran help. The Office of Shipbuilding worked hand-in-hand with the RMN BuShips. The definitely added innovations, but they didn't design the SD classes from scratch: they built upon Manticoran designs. The Medusa design was joint and at that point clearly they were able to take more responsibility.

Grayson had several things going for it that were none of Manticore's doing, of course. In addition to the compact fission reactor and the more efficient compensators, as you mentioned, they had a very good education system. When the technology became available to be studied, they jumped on it and taught their engineers and scientists. Not to mention that the Benjamin's reforms, the workforce suddenly became larger. And despite their attitudes towards women, the women were well-educated too and did know how to operate modern equipment.

They had a lot of space-based industry too, because of the conditions on their planet. With that tradition and a workforce ready to work in space (and aware of the dangers!), they could very quickly build and expand the Blackbird yards.

You're right though that the progression was very gradual and snuck under the radar. Grayson started as a backwater planet with ships that wouldn't stand toe-to-toe to a century-old Manticoran ships. They joined the began building Star Knights (for example) with their twist. Then they joined the Medusa project and completed GNS Honor Harrington before Manticore did. When the High Ridge Government reduced the investment, Grayson continued with war-time footing and surpassed Manticore, for a while.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks. It's simply that I didn't get another memo. Namely that Grayson's compensator design was also better; and not simply their reactor design. Grayson also began to lead the pact in ship design too. They also managed to somehow equal Manty build rates.

All of their industry leading prowess snuck up on me. Taken in dribs and drabs, I didn't realize that Grayson is so technologically advanced. Protector Benjamin is the only Grayson who studied off planet. Which means Grayson has a heck of an education system. Graysons education seems to surpass the Havenites as well. Lil ol Grayson? See what happens when you let go and let God?

Grayson's overall tech base snuck up on me like a Mesan under stealth.

All of this was done with Manticoran help. The Office of Shipbuilding worked hand-in-hand with the RMN BuShips. The definitely added innovations, but they didn't design the SD classes from scratch: they built upon Manticoran designs. The Medusa design was joint and at that point clearly they were able to take more responsibility.

Grayson had several things going for it that were none of Manticore's doing, of course. In addition to the compact fission reactor and the more efficient compensators, as you mentioned, they had a very good education system. When the technology became available to be studied, they jumped on it and taught their engineers and scientists. Not to mention that the Benjamin's reforms, the workforce suddenly became larger. And despite their attitudes towards women, the women were well-educated too and did know how to operate modern equipment.

They had a lot of space-based industry too, because of the conditions on their planet. With that tradition and a workforce ready to work in space (and aware of the dangers!), they could very quickly build and expand the Blackbird yards.

You're right though that the progression was very gradual and snuck under the radar. Grayson started as a backwater planet with ships that wouldn't stand toe-to-toe to a century-old Manticoran ships. They joined the began building Star Knights (for example) with their twist. Then they joined the Medusa project and completed GNS Honor Harrington before Manticore did. When the High Ridge Government reduced the investment, Grayson continued with war-time footing and surpassed Manticore, for a while.

Thanks for reminding me of the handshaking that went on in the tech department between the two navies. Essentially the RMN took Grayson's ideas and gave it to the Chinese in their employ to reverse enginee— er improve.