SLN Future

Scenario is February 1923 post Battle of Sol, the future of the League is being deciding and so is the future of the SLN. With the conclusion of the war between the Grand Alliance and the Solarian League and the devastating defeat that the SLN suffered time after time along with the collapse of their image in the League and outside of the league there needs to be some very drastic changes. Problem is that the League civilian government instructed the navy to commit atrocities and encouraged Eridani Edict, not only against neutral systems but also against its own member systems that were trying to legally secede from the Solarian League. There would be very few people and even fewer star systems that will not be able see the message that the mandarins were trying to send and worse for the SLN no one will doubt that the SLN is capable of committing atrocities against innocent and even their own countrymen, atrocities they have for centuries been obligated to prevent and if necessary avenge.

So amongst the discussions for how the civilian government will be build, how the systems will be taxed or not taxed and discussion of the veto power everyone has there has to be a very serious discussion on the future of the SLN. Not only were they prepared to commit atrocities and EE violations on what amounted to illegal orders to terrorize neutrals and their own people, but the SLN managed to lose 38% of their entire wall 18.5% of their wall was lost in one battle that they initiated and in fact had numerical parity. SO seeing that the SLN is corrupt and unable/unwilling to stand up to civilian leadership that ordered illegal attack after illegal attack after illegal attack what would be the options for a future SLN post war?
Basically the scenario is that the League lost half of their systems and half of their GDP, at this point even with the GA the League is still the largest single nation with the most industrial potential for now but their member systems(850 of them) are naturally worried about potentially reaming and strengthening the SLN only for the SLN to be used as a tool of oppression against the remaining League Members at a later date.

NOTE: For this scenario the MA is a non factor.
My view is that there are broken down in the following points from, for me at least most unlikely to the most likely:


1) The first option is introduction of taxes by the League and in conjunction with income from trade the SLN is funded and rebuild on the frame of the old SLN, the League will go about rooting out corruption and nepotism with the ultimate goal of a professional, reliable yet much larger SLN. The war with the GA would have showed the League that 2,300 SD’s is not enough for a 1,700 member nation and it still wont be enough for 850 remaining members as every member will want guarantee of protection because their tax money is going to the SLN. The navy would be build at the national level, SDF’s would be disbanded and amalgamated into the SLN and the SLN will be the only national military force. Problems I see with this are as follows:

a) The SLN has been abusing the verge and protectorates, normally this is not a big concern for the core/shell but this has set precedent that the SLN can and will commit atrocities and oppression against innocent people.

b) The SLN was used as a tool to terrorize and destroy the infrastructure of neutral systems that were not participating on either side of the war that the League had in fact started thereby proving that the SLN can be ordered to commit atrocities and infact EE violations and they will almost gleefully execute those orders.

c) Worst of all of the core/shell members is the attacks on member systems, and the plans on attacks of member systems. This made the preceding points all the more devastating because up until the war with the League, what happened in the verge stayed in the verge unless someone made some noise and they were placated by a commission to determine what happened and quietly do nothing, this now shows the core and shell that they can be targets for their own government. This leads me to believe that few systems will willingly contribute money to a navy that can easily be used to oppress them.

d) Last of all is the complete and undeniable inability for the SLN to defend the core and shell. Even in a war with a technological peer the SLN has only 1.18 SD’s/member system and consistently used them to attack the enemy and leave the core and shell completely vulnerable and defenceless which to me indicated that they cannot be trusted by the member systems to provide defence in times of need.

2) The next option would be a hybrid SLN, where taxes are paid by member systems to maintain a common fleet composed of SD(P)’s, CLAC’s, BC’s and below. This fleet would be the National navy while individual systems would be encouraged/obligated to build a SDF of their own with SD(P)’s, CLAC’s and escorts for their own defence. The SLN would be used for offensive purposes and defending strategic objectives or reinforcing threatened systems. If every system was obligated to maintain 2-3 squadrons of SD(P)’s for their own defence, and there being 850 League members that would leave the SDF’s to number between 13,600 SD(P)’s and 20,400 SD(P)’s. On paper that is a massive force but in reality those 13,600-20,400 SD(P)’s would be split amongst 850 navies, 850 systems that will be a purely defensive force while the SLN could have their 2,300 SD(P)’s or even a force double that. So on paper the SLN is only a fraction of the firepower of all the member systems combined but their firpower is concentrated and can overwhelm any one system or even any 100 systems if the need should arise. So the problems for the SLN and the League are the same as the previous option.


3) The third option is still a hybrid SLN/SDF force but this would be a more focused fleet. Basically the SLN would be reduced to the role of Frontier Fleet, they would have CLAC’s, the SLN version of the David Taylor class ships and BC’s and below while the SDF’s would have all of the wallers with supporting CLAC’s. This ensures that the central government would not be able to use the SLN to oppress anyone and the League members would have control of wars because the SLN would need to be reinforced with SD(P)’s and CLAC’s from the SDF’s in the event of war. This has different issues:

a) The first one is that the main combat power of the SLN would be split into 850 individual navies many of which would be very opposed to wars of aggression unless the situation is very important to get the entire League body behind the government.

b) The combat power would be disjointed, there has to be a central command structure and training that the SLN would be responsible for to ensure that the different services would be able to operate together with little problem during war time but this still would be 850 individual navies sending their own SD(P)’s and CLAC’s to war. This would require a lot of workup before any offensive action.

c) There is always the chance that many of the League members would refuse to come to the defence of other League members in time of war out of fear of exposing their own systems.



4) This to me is the most likely outcome, a purely defensive alliance with 850 SDF’s with obligations spelled out in the constitution for the defence of their systems and their obligation for the defence of the League. Basically this would be 850 independent nations that are allies, a version of NATO. This is good for the GA because trying to get 850 Systems to agree on an attack on the GA using ships that those systems build, manned, equipped and paid for while leaving those systems exposed would be a hard sell. For the member systems, this is the best options because the central government has no means to force militarily any one system to do anything.

a) The problem with this one is that the SLN doesn’t exist as an organization, no matter its shortcomings it was still a national unifing force, and without a central government navy the government would have to await ships from the member systems, ships that may or may not arrive depending on if the systems decide to uphold their obligations or not.

b) There is no central force to keep a lid on potential problems, instead of having an SLN SD squadron between two systems that have a heated longlasting disagreement now there are 6 SD(P) squadrons between those two systems and dozens of neighbours who may or may not want to intervene. This could lead to the collapse of the League if one or more system decide to use force against a neighbour to settle disputes triggering a chain reaction and forcing a civil war with the central government having no ability to immediately intervene.

c) Getting 2,000 SD(P)’s for an offensive would be an extreme hassle because they would come from dozens or hundreds of navies, they would need to be drilled and trained together until they can be a cohesive force which would be significantly longer than most professional first rate navies.
Ultimately I would say that number 3 and 4 are for me the most likely, the leave most or all of the power into the hands of the member systems and keep the firpower that could oppress them out of the hands of the League government. The negatives are that the League military would be made up of 850 navies and thereby would be exceptionally disjointed.


How do you guys envision the SLN post war.

You are fundamentally misreading the situation. The SLN was loyal and reliable. They showed up, they followed orders, and kept their mouths shut about what they thought of the orders and the people giving them. They were always willing to fight even when badly outclassed.

The basic problem was who they were loyal too. Which was the SL government, which the members of the SL allowed to become completely corrupt and loyal only to themselves, honoring the principles of the SL only when it was convenient or when people were watching. It wasn’t a real secret, it was just something people didn’t want to talk about or learn about the details.

Far be it from me to fail to accept the premise of a thread. So do forgive my "honorable" mention of the MA in my response.

The MA will be so devastating when it descends upon humanity for all the marbles that the SLN will join the GA.

cthia wrote:Far be it from me to fail to accept the premise of a thread. So do forgive my "honorable" mention of the MA in my response.

The MA will be so devastating when it descends upon humanity for all the marbles that the SLN will join the GA.

I highly Doubt that the SLN will join the GA. The SLN is so far behind the curve technologically, and a truly terrifying number of their senior officers are/were agents of the MA and the rest were corrupt through other means and that doesn't even count the Bureaucrats who are as corrupt as the SLN leadership. Many of the civilian and military Leaders are working for the MA without even knowing that they are working for the MA so they don't have the "super-duper-easy to identify bad guys implants" so the League would be struggling to remove all corruption not just the MA for decades while simultaneously trying to catch up technologically. At the same time the MA would spend some time hiding because all they can do for the foreseeable future is assassination attempts or send their little BB's to do more sneak attacks, sneak attacks that might become a lot harder to accomplish. They cant push the RF to expand too openly and aggressively because that might just pique the interest of the GA intelligence services and subsequently have the Grand Fleet pay them a visit, a visit they cannot resist no matter how super smart they are.

So the MA might be a factor in this, but the factor would be a negative one where people would see how easy it was for the SLN to be manipulated into instigating a war all on it's own, how an outside organization moved hundreds of SD's on their own authority and likely this will push the League into the either a Hybrid navy or fully manned and operated SDF's without the SLN. And worst of all, they will see the slaughter at Beowulf as the MA using the SLN to commit atrocities, more motivation to prevent one all powerful organization from being in charge of the defence of the League.

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:Far be it from me to fail to accept the premise of a thread. So do forgive my "honorable" mention of the MA in my response.

The MA will be so devastating when it descends upon humanity for all the marbles that the SLN will join the GA.

I highly Doubt that the SLN will join the GA. The SLN is so far behind the curve technologically, and a truly terrifying number of their senior officers are/were agents of the MA and the rest were corrupt through other means and that doesn't even count the Bureaucrats who are as corrupt as the SLN leadership. Many of the civilian and military Leaders are working for the MA without even knowing that they are working for the MA so they don't have the "super-duper-easy to identify bad guys implants" so the League would be struggling to remove all corruption not just the MA for decades while simultaneously trying to catch up technologically. At the same time the MA would spend some time hiding because all they can do for the foreseeable future is assassination attempts or send their little BB's to do more sneak attacks, sneak attacks that might become a lot harder to accomplish. They cant push the RF to expand too openly and aggressively because that might just pique the interest of the GA intelligence services and subsequently have the Grand Fleet pay them a visit, a visit they cannot resist no matter how super smart they are.

So the MA might be a factor in this, but the factor would be a negative one where people would see how easy it was for the SLN to be manipulated into instigating a war all on it's own, how an outside organization moved hundreds of SD's on their own authority and likely this will push the League into the either a Hybrid navy or fully manned and operated SDF's without the SLN. And worst of all, they will see the slaughter at Beowulf as the MA using the SLN to commit atrocities, more motivation to prevent one all powerful organization from being in charge of the defence of the League.

Yes, you're probably right about that "join" thing. Perhaps in another "de facto" capacity. LOL

I truly believe the only way the galaxy will defeat the MA is to pool and cross reference all of its resources and data with the GA. Treecats assisting the Ghost Hunters would be kewl!

I truly believe comparing notes will lead to the MA.

One possiblity would be to turn the SDFs into something more akin to an intensification of the US National Guard. The SLN would during peacetime be a fairly small force, but maintain the cadre of large fleet command. But through the SLN policy would be set for acceptable equipment with sufficient commonality to keep logistics sane if the SDFs did have to work together. Also set through the SLN would be doctrine and training requirements; so the various SDFs would be worked to the same playbook and training to the same standards.
The, subject to either some level of Assembly approval or veto, in an emergency the League executive could "nationalize" SDFs and bring them directly under the control of the central SLN.

Formalizing that process would prevent the League from having to beg for forces from each SDF in a crisis - but can still provide enough input from each system's assembly representatives to reduce the chances of stripping a system of control of its SDF for petty or arbitrary reasons. The agreement might even limit how much of an SDF can be nationalized.

You'd still need some safety nets in there, like what to do if a world chooses not to fund its SDF to the mandated level.

cthia wrote:I truly believe the only way the galaxy will defeat the MA is to pool and cross reference all of its resources and data with the GA. Treecats assisting the Ghost Hunters would be kewl!

I truly believe comparing notes will lead to the MA.

I agree and we're likely to see treecats assisting Ghost Hunters in the next CS book.

But the SLN resources aren't very useful right now. Their SDs are obsolete and as we've just discussed in the Honor: Pimp My Ride thread, SDs are useful in large concentrations forming a wall. What the galaxy need is a network of dispersed intelligence to collect information. The thousands of BCs, CAs and DDs of FF would be far more useful, if Honor hadn't ordered them to stay in the SL space.

But taking what kzt said above: the problem with the SLN wasn't the majority of its people, though they were badly trained, arrogant and prone to corruption, which the good whacking of losing to the GA might be well in the way of curing. The problem was the leadership: a few hundred people in the right places could order the SLN to do unimaginable things. This needs correction, but it's also not very difficult to correct. And once the League overall leadership is corrected and made accountable to its people, problems should subside.

The SLN culture will also need to change, if it stays as a single organisation. Like the German military after World War II, "just following orders" will not be acceptable any more. The COs and especially flag officers will have to develop critical thinking and determine whether the orders they've received were moral and just. The SLN will also need to purge its top-heavy officer roster, retiring, summarily dismissing or shuffling out of the way anyone who is incompetent, amoral, and/or corrupt.

If it does all that, it would be able to continue to exist.

The question the OP is asking is whether the member systems will allow them to. That is, once it became clear that the SLN was used to commit atrocities, will they keep funding it, even with promises to be better?

I don't know. On one hand, I'm sure there'll be a lot of systems that want to simply disband or de-fund the SLN, as the options in the OP show. But the problems the OP listed will likely be seen too, so it's not a given. Moreover, there's an economic impact: of the 850 or so systems that remain, only something like 50 are Core Worlds with enough industry and economic might to field a squadron of SDs. Everyone else is probably anywhere from Zanzibar and Alison through Casca to Montana and Split. That is, some may be able to field BC squadrons and others will have absolutely no military history.

Building or buying an SD, plus keeping it in fighting shape, probably costs something like one trillion Manticoran dollars a year. The Gross System Product of those systems may not be able to absorb the cost of one, much less of a squadron. And then there's the problem of crewing such a ship: where do the spacers and officers get trained?

If instead the mandate is that, like NATO today, member systems invest 2% of their GSP into the military, then you need a NATO-like mutual-defence treaty. 2% of Montana might be able to run a pair of DDs.

cthia wrote:Yes, you're probably right about that "join" thing. Perhaps in another "de facto" capacity. LOL

I truly believe the only way the galaxy will defeat the MA is to pool and cross reference all of its resources and data with the GA. Treecats assisting the Ghost Hunters would be kewl!

I truly believe comparing notes will lead to the MA.

Comparing notes? Yes. Sharing Intelligence? Yes. But with the SLN's ethics and the very questionable capabilities and character of most senior officers I doubt the GA would allow the SLN anywhere where they can do damage or outside the League for that matter. Besides, most intelligence gathering organizations within the League are so inept it would take a lot of effort to rebuild capable organizations, for most it might be easier to burn everything to the ground and start from scratch.

Jonathan_S wrote:One possiblity would be to turn the SDFs into something more akin to an intensification of the US National Guard. The SLN would during peacetime be a fairly small force, but maintain the cadre of large fleet command. But through the SLN policy would be set for acceptable equipment with sufficient commonality to keep logistics sane if the SDFs did have to work together. Also set through the SLN would be doctrine and training requirements; so the various SDFs would be worked to the same playbook and training to the same standards.
The, subject to either some level of Assembly approval or veto, in an emergency the League executive could "nationalize" SDFs and bring them directly under the control of the central SLN.

Formalizing that process would prevent the League from having to beg for forces from each SDF in a crisis - but can still provide enough input from each system's assembly representatives to reduce the chances of stripping a system of control of its SDF for petty or arbitrary reasons. The agreement might even limit how much of an SDF can be nationalized.

You'd still need some safety nets in there, like what to do if a world chooses not to fund its SDF to the mandated level.

That would be good because they would need centralization, it would be pretty hard to give command of a 2,000 SD(P) fleet to someone who has at most commanded 3-4 squadrons of SD(P)'s.

As for enforcing minimum funding, I would say there are ways politically and economically to force systems to play ball anything from diplomatic pressure, tariffs on trade all the way up to threats of and actual expulsion from the League. But I don't think that the League would have the problem for a while, after all the invincibility of the SLN was so ingrained in the League's way of thinking that the shock of their defeat and the fear associated with no longer having that umbrella would be high motivation. The other part is the knowledge that there are now multiple entities that can threaten the League, until the 1800 the largest foreign entity was a few dozen systems now there is an alliance in the hundreds of systems potentially growing to a thousand or more when the dust settles. Worse is with their actions in the verge coming to light and fears of revenge in the decades or centuries to come will prompt more focus on defence, the core and shell cannot afford to ignore the rest of the galaxy and worst of all they cannot even trust their own government.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I agree and we're likely to see treecats assisting Ghost Hunters in the next CS book.

Sorry but the Ghost Hunters would be way too busy clearing their own government and military of the MA to actually assist outside the League. With the way the League is right now, taking the handful of honest, competent and reliable intelligence assets and using them outside the League while the League is in crisis would allow for the MA to infiltrate the League once again, or at least take action to prevent their agents from dropping dead on arrest.

But the SLN resources aren't very useful right now. Their SDs are obsolete and as we've just discussed in the Honor: Pimp My Ride thread, SDs are useful in large concentrations forming a wall. What the galaxy need is a network of dispersed intelligence to collect information. The thousands of BCs, CAs and DDs of FF would be far more useful, if Honor hadn't ordered them to stay in the SL space.

The ships might be useful, but the crew's would be of questionable loyalty. We don't know how deep the MA has infiltrated the FF, the last thing you need is to use MA assets to hunt for the MA. Using frontier fleet in the verge might create the picture that the GA is nothing but Frontier Security with a new master.

But taking what kzt said above: the problem with the SLN wasn't the majority of its people, though they were badly trained, arrogant and prone to corruption, which the good whacking of losing to the GA might be well in the way of curing. The problem was the leadership: a few hundred people in the right places could order the SLN to do unimaginable things. This needs correction, but it's also not very difficult to correct. And once the League overall leadership is corrected and made accountable to its people, problems should subside.

Those few hundred were backed up by thousands of other who were willing to turn a blind eye to EE violations, who are corrupt in one way or another or are just plain incompetent. They have an entire Branch of their Military that is basically rent-a-thug, not even worth reorganizing into an army. The SLN has done a lot of very questionable things for decades if not centuries, changing the culture of the military would take several decades of work during which there has to be constant overwatch on the of the navy to prevent return to corruption. Basicly there are 150,000,000 people in the navy, trying to root out the bad apples when the entire organization has done business that way forever will a massive undertaking.

If it does all that, it would be able to continue to exist.

The problem is did their actions during the war and their actions for the decades preceding the war permanently damage their reputation? They were prepared to carry out the murder of their own civilians, the attacks on those systems could have caused tens or hundreds of millions of casualties if not billions by blindly firing while retreating, they were ready to carry out those actions, the comparison would be whether you trust to bring the SS back post war, after they were willing to commit atrocities and actually committed atrocities during the war.

Building or buying an SD, plus keeping it in fighting shape, probably costs something like one trillion Manticoran dollars a year. The Gross System Product of those systems may not be able to absorb the cost of one, much less of a squadron. And then there's the problem of crewing such a ship: where do the spacers and officers get trained?

Go through the SLN, pick out the best and brightest and establish new training systems for everything from the missile tech all the way to the tac officers and everything in between, this would be a lengthy process during which the SLN would have to continue to provide security as best they can but at the same time the newly build League Intelligence services would be vetting everyone of their 150,000,000 members even if they have to beg the GA for assistance(treecats).

Initially the best the SLN has to offer will man schools and over time there will be enough people in dozens of systems to create separate institutions at the sector and system level.

If instead the mandate is that, like NATO today, member systems invest 2% of their GSP into the military, then you need a NATO-like mutual-defence treaty. 2% of Montana might be able to run a pair of DDs.

I was going with the assumption that a lot of the shell systems are quite powerful as well, not as powerful as the core but many would come close. Otherwise the GA has little to fear in terms of revenge from the League if they can rebuild Manticore, Beowulf and Grayson along with any core systems that join the GA or at least become allies they can be a major countering force to the League. That is before all the newly liberated verge and protectorates are factored, all of them are poor and under developed but many will be very motivated and with the right approach, in a few decades the GA can have many new powerful allies or members from what used to be the verge and protectorates.


But if the League has only 50 core worlds and the rest are the equivalent of Talbott Quadrant in terms of industrialization I would say that they would have to go with a hybrid, the shell systems wont be able to put up much of a fight and the core systems will not be willing to fund hundreds of SD's to protect everyone. To be fair though, financially the SLN was funded in large part through fees collected from trade, if you cut it in half and eliminate the fees from the protectorates, the SLN should easily maintain 700 SD's before having to resort to taxation, eliminate the corruption, waste and bloat and you can probably triple that before there is even a tax.