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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sat May 02, 2020 2:19 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:Is it there are "serious differences" between chess and war?

Yes.

tlb wrote:Or else
Is it "every war or battle is a chess match"?

Yes.

It certainly is as far as your opponent is concerned. He wants to live. It better be the same for you as well, if YOU want to live.

If you are thinking 'What will I do next?,' and 'What if this doesn't work?,' then you already have one of the most fundamental tactics in chess. Thinking several moves ahead.

"If you fail to plan, you plan to fail."

It's not complicated.

Let's use a friendly neighborhood analogy . . .

In the early days of football, the differences in a good team and a great team was often found in the attitudes about the scrimmage games.

There are differences in scrimmages and real games.

But. For the truly great teams . . .

Every scrimmage is a real game. Understand?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sat May 02, 2020 3:16 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:Even if I accepted that Chess moves were a good approximation of military moves, [b]it remains true that chess pieces do not have to be recruited, trained, equipped, fed, motivated and led; all of which require qualities that are not needed by chess.

You keep stressing that there are differences between war and chess. Everyone knows chess is a game. What chess truly is? Chess is a classroom, where one can learn the concepts of warfare. Surely you are not renouncing the benefits of a classroom? Saganami not needed?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Sat May 02, 2020 4:28 pm

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cthia wrote:
tlb wrote:Is it there are "serious differences" between chess and war?
Yes.
tlb wrote:Is it "every war or battle is a chess match"?
Yes.

No, the two statements are thesis and antithesis and you have not provided the synthesis.

If you want me to believe that thinking about chess is an analog of some of the thought processes that go into war or that chess could be a metaphor for a bloodless aspect of war, then I probably would not take issue with what you write. But I reject any equivalence between the two, because war making requires far more abilities and resources than chess playing does and war is not bloodless.

The quote from George Eliot described a much better analog to the process of waging war than chess does.

Chess is a classroom, where one can learn the concepts of warfare. Surely you are not renouncing the benefits of a classroom? Saganami not needed?

You seem to be saying that Saganami only needed to teach the cadets chess, which would be nonsense.
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Re: ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat May 02, 2020 9:37 pm

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tlb wrote:To repeat: General Lee probably had a better intellect than that of General Grant, but it was Grant that continually prevailed over him (except at Cold Harbor) and won in the end.
Yep. Grant had a couple key insights that led him to realize that given the balance of forces and ability between the Union and the Confederacy having the best tactics on the field wasn't strictly necessary to winning.
With more men, supplies, and better logistics, the key to defeating the Confederacy was to keep the pressure on and deny them time to recover and refit.

In Virginia, prior to Grant, the armies would tend to maneuver until they had a major battle. Then both retreat to their camps to rest, refit, and deal with their wounded. (Magnifying this was a tendency of the Union in prior years to focus on one campaign at a time, allowing the Confederacy to use their interior lines to shuttle units from a quiet front to the active one; largely failing to take advantage of the Union's larger army.

Grant basically would just not leave the field. Reinforce and keep going. Use the Union's superior logistics to keep his army supplied and bring up replacements. Even when he took pretty disastrous losses - like the failed assaults on the trenchworks at Cold Harbor he didn't fall back on Washington. He keep his army in the field and within weeks from that failure had forced Lee's army in a static defense of 35 miles of trenches surrounding Richmond.
Grant then brought up enough force to crack that line and take Richmond, chasing Lee's forces down until their surrender at Appomattox Court House.

Chess is more tactical but Grant's effectiveness was realizing he could win the war at the Operational level (movement of troops, equipment and supplies, to get enough of them where they need to be to fight the battles that will advance your Strategic goal), even when not able to achieve decisive results on the Tactical level against Lee (who by most accounts was the superior tactician).

He had more pieces, and an ability to replace lost pieces, that chess just doesn't have.

Okay if you make the analogy superficial enough you can say war is like chess; because you have to think ahead and plan how you'll react to their moves. But at that like of trivial comparison you could just as easily say it's like Connect Four. :D
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Sun May 03, 2020 12:49 pm

cthia
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If an LD has enormous energy weapons, and mousetrapping is a cinch for it to achieve :lol:

BOOM CHAKA LAKA!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon May 04, 2020 11:36 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:To repeat: General Lee probably had a better intellect than that of General Grant, but it was Grant that continually prevailed over him (except at Cold Harbor) and won in the end.
Jonathan_S wrote:Yep. Grant had a couple key insights that led him to realize that given the balance of forces and ability between the Union and the Confederacy having the best tactics on the field wasn't strictly necessary to winning.

An insightful chess player juggles the same variables as a matter of course.


Jonathan_S wrote:With more men, supplies, and better logistics, the key to defeating the Confederacy was to keep the pressure on and deny them time to recover and refit.

Sounds like an attack on a weak-side oblique. The strategy is to attack to prevent your opponent from advancing his Rook's pawn to R3, completing En Appui. Your overwhelming position allows your timely attack. Your opponent must protect and advance that pawn from a cramped position against your overwhelming position, hence - superior logistics.

Jonathan_S wrote:In Virginia, prior to Grant, the armies would tend to maneuver until they had a major battle. Then both retreat to their camps to rest, refit, and deal with their wounded.
This is exactly what happens when there is "novice against novice," on the board. They mostly fight with their Queens. Without their Queen, they're broken, dejected and left without hope. A novice or beginner's tactic is to attack and retreat.

One MAJOR advantage of chess is that the victor will get to claim his spoils in, at best, hours. So there's no time for Dilly-dallying.


Jonathan_S wrote:(Magnifying this was a tendency of the Union in prior years to focus on one campaign at a time, allowing the Confederacy to use their interior lines to shuttle units from a quiet front to the active one; largely failing to take advantage of the Union's larger army.

Surely one campaign at a time, is reminiscent of a novice chess player who hasn't yet learned to attack several areas on the board simultaneously, creating weaknesses and advantages/disadvantages in position, thus mobility.

Jonathan_S wrote:Grant basically would just not leave the field. Reinforce and keep going. Use the Union's superior logistics to keep his army supplied and bring up replacements. Even when he took pretty disastrous losses - like the failed assaults on the trenchworks at Cold Harbor he didn't fall back on Washington. He keep his army in the field and within weeks from that failure had forced Lee's army in a static defense of 35 miles of trenches surrounding Richmond.
Grant then brought up enough force to crack that line and take Richmond, chasing Lee's forces down until their surrender at Appomattox Court House.

Take huge losses, but, AT ALL COSTS, promote those pawns! Take advantage of your superior position in the midst of dwindling forces.

Jonathan_S wrote:Chess is more tactical but Grant's effectiveness was realizing he could win the war at the Operational level (movement of troops, equipment and supplies, to get enough of them where they need to be to fight the battles that will advance your Strategic goal), even when not able to achieve decisive results on the Tactical level against Lee (who by most accounts was the superior tactician).

He had more pieces, and an ability to replace lost pieces, that chess just doesn't have.

Okay if you make the analogy superficial enough you can say war is like chess; because you have to think ahead and plan how you'll react to their moves. But at that like of trivial comparison you could just as easily say it's like Connect Four. :D

The Operational level is also found on the chess board, as well as all other levels. Although condensed, and at times highly magnified.

E.g., against a stronger player (like my niece) I'll choose the Nimzo-Indian defense and move the appropriate pieces.

Mostly everything on the battle field has a counterpart in chess, for the most part. If your mind is open to the conception.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon May 04, 2020 2:42 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Chess is more tactical but Grant's effectiveness was realizing he could win the war at the Operational level (movement of troops, equipment and supplies, to get enough of them where they need to be to fight the battles that will advance your Strategic goal), even when not able to achieve decisive results on the Tactical level against Lee (who by most accounts was the superior tactician).

He had more pieces, and an ability to replace lost pieces, that chess just doesn't have.

Okay if you make the analogy superficial enough you can say war is like chess; because you have to think ahead and plan how you'll react to their moves. But at that like of trivial comparison you could just as easily say it's like Connect Four. :D

cthia wrote:Mostly everything on the battle field has a counterpart in chess, for the most part. If your mind is open to the conception.

If you want me to believe that thinking about chess is an analog of some of the thought processes that go into war or that chess could be a metaphor for a bloodless aspect of war, then I probably would not take issue with what you write. But I reject any equivalence between the two, because war making requires far more abilities and resources than chess playing does and war is not bloodless.

You still have NOT explained how you can claim that two antithetical statements are both true: 1) there are "serious differences" between chess and war; 2) "every war or battle is a chess match".

I agree with statement number one and agree with Jonathan S that chess is at best a very superficial analog for the thought processes that go into planning a battle or war,
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon May 04, 2020 6:08 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Chess is more tactical but Grant's effectiveness was realizing he could win the war at the Operational level (movement of troops, equipment and supplies, to get enough of them where they need to be to fight the battles that will advance your Strategic goal), even when not able to achieve decisive results on the Tactical level against Lee (who by most accounts was the superior tactician).

He had more pieces, and an ability to replace lost pieces, that chess just doesn't have.

Okay if you make the analogy superficial enough you can say war is like chess; because you have to think ahead and plan how you'll react to their moves. But at that like of trivial comparison you could just as easily say it's like Connect Four. :D

cthia wrote:Mostly everything on the battle field has a counterpart in chess, for the most part. If your mind is open to the conception.

If you want me to believe that thinking about chess is an analog of some of the thought processes that go into war or that chess could be a metaphor for a bloodless aspect of war, then I probably would not take issue with what you write. But I reject any equivalence between the two, because war making requires far more abilities and resources than chess playing does and war is not bloodless.

You still have NOT explained how you can claim that two antithetical statements are both true: 1) there are "serious differences" between chess and war; 2) "every war or battle is a chess match".

I agree with statement number one and agree with Jonathan S that chess is at best a very superficial analog for the thought processes that go into planning a battle or war,

They are NOT antithetical.

Not sure even YOU can know how much instruction it'd take to get you to see that.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon May 04, 2020 7:37 pm

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cthia wrote:They are NOT antithetical.

Not sure even YOU can know how much instruction it'd take to get you to see that.

When faced with two statements "A is the same as B" and "A is seriously different than B", it is very hard for me to see how they could not be antithetical. So it is certainly true that I cannot conceive of how much argumentation it would take to convince me to believe the opposite.

Yet you state that they are both true. Is that because what you have told me three times must be true, as Lewis Carroll would say?
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Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Mon May 04, 2020 9:41 pm

cthia
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ALL GENERALS PLAY CHESS


Jonathan_S wrote:He had more pieces, and an ability to replace lost pieces, that chess just doesn't have.

Promoting pawns replaces lost pieces. Even your most powerful piece.

****** *

cthia wrote: "My only point is every war or battle is a chess match and that all generals play chess."
tlb wrote:We have no statistics on how many generals play chess versus poker or any other game, so lets dispense with that part of your second statement.

Sorry, but I can't exactly do that. My statement is true.

We DO have statistics on how many generals play chess. I gave you those statistics. Some things can be intuited with your brain, if you don't miss certain connections.

You have a problem with metaphors and analogies. It is your Achilles heel in conversations. You can't make simple mental connections, and as a result you consistently get lost in the weeds.

ALL GENERALS PLAY CHESS
in some form or fashion

IT IS A RITE OF PASSAGE

When a general is in the War Room wielding his brass-tipped wooden pointer, to move ordnance about the theater of conflict ... until ... BAM!!!

CHECKMATE.



All generals play chess.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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