Alternate history: PRH-Solarian War

Jonathan_S wrote:And while you can build and man BCs cheaper than BBs, it's not 1/3rd cheaper. Which makes BBs a more cost effective method of rear area defense against RMN BC based raids than swarms of BCs (given their relative combat effectiveness against RMN BCs)

And the BBs don't have to be too expensive to run (once you have them anyway) if you don't crew them properly. I suppose the PN had their sub-par crews aboard the BBs, since they mostly did nothing anyway except sit there very visible. We've seen from what a totally inexperienced crew aboard a Sultan-class BC could do against a mainline Star Knight-class CA, so it's not difficult to suppose even a pair of Reliant BCs wouldn't want to go against a Triumphant-class BB, even if improperly crewed.

And of course the neither the PN nor MinPub would let the RMN know they were improperly crewed. The PN didn't even use sequential hull numbers so the enemies wouldn't know for sure how many ships they had.

Jonathan_S wrote:And while you can build and man BCs cheaper than BBs, it's not 1/3rd cheaper. Which makes BBs a more cost effective method of rear area defense against RMN BC based raids than swarms of BCs (given their relative combat effectiveness against RMN BCs)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And the BBs don't have to be too expensive to run (once you have them anyway) if you don't crew them properly. I suppose the PN had their sub-par crews aboard the BBs, since they mostly did nothing anyway except sit there very visible. We've seen from what a totally inexperienced crew aboard a Sultan-class BC could do against a mainline Star Knight-class CA, so it's not difficult to suppose even a pair of Reliant BCs wouldn't want to go against a Triumphant-class BB, even if improperly crewed.

And of course the neither the PN nor MinPub would let the RMN know they were improperly crewed. The PN didn't even use sequential hull numbers so the enemies wouldn't know for sure how many ships they had.

Maybe they would be inexperienced initially, but shouldn't there be training while on that BB to bring them up to naval standards? So the BB fleet could serve as the training grounds for Navy enlisted crew.

The entire PRHN is sub-par from RMN or even SLN standards at the start of the war. David had it as very Russian, where everything that couldn’t be effectively taught in a few months was done by officers. You arive knowing exactly what you need to do to do your job. So there is no need to train crews outside of the training depots, and all non-routine maint is done by support units at maintenance depots.

It might very well stay that way without the revolution

And no, ships are expensive to run, and the larger they are there they cost. Particularly when tou decide to do a complete tech upgrade on all your old BBs right before the war starts.

kzt wrote:Goverments who didn’t like the PRH, and I’ve heard there might be some, might even donate a little something.

Where exactly in the region do you find a government that hates Haven enough to do something like that, has the money to acquire warships, has the contacts that can get them the warships without being traced back to them, has the ability to find crews willing to go on suicide mission, isn't worried about being caught and put at the top of Haven's to do list and has no issue with recruiting, training and equipping people for a suicide mission that will accomplish the next best thing to nothing?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I also suppose that there are a lot of BC classes throughout the known Galaxy. Not very good ones, mind you, probably crappy enough that they would even avoid confrontation against a Peep Mars-class CA they barely outweigh. But enough that a government in exile or rebels (depending on your point of view) with access to some out-system funds could purchase.

And accomplish what exactly? If they maintained a government in exile and had a fleet to go with that government in exile it's one thing, but buying, equipping and deploying a or two or even 5-6 BC's wont accomplish anything in the long run and whoever sold them the ships will be in for a lot of fun unless its the League or someone on the other side of the League.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And the BBs don't have to be too expensive to run (once you have them anyway) if you don't crew them properly. I suppose the PN had their sub-par crews aboard the BBs, since they mostly did nothing anyway except sit there very visible. We've seen from what a totally inexperienced crew aboard a Sultan-class BC could do against a mainline Star Knight-class CA, so it's not difficult to suppose even a pair of Reliant BCs wouldn't want to go against a Triumphant-class BB, even if improperly crewed.

And of course the neither the PN nor MinPub would let the RMN know they were improperly crewed. The PN didn't even use sequential hull numbers so the enemies wouldn't know for sure how many ships they had.

Unless its an emergency "improperly crewed" shouldn't happen. They may be inexperienced, some BB's might have poor leadership but as a whole? They shouldn't be. They could have a bigger share of new officers and enlisted for training purposes but they should still be capable of operating the ship.

kzt wrote:It might very well stay that way without the revolution

I would beg to differ, if they just fought a 5 year war against the Manticore Alliance they probably made some improvements on the whole training and efficiency problem. Unless the RMN suddenly collectively decided to give up the war itself should have pushed improvement, training, efficiency, experience and new blood both in the NCO and officer world. A hard-fought 5 year war against a first rate enemy like Manticore would have most likely allowed some of the more capable non-Legislaturist junior officers to break through into the higher ranks and without the government shooting officers who suffer a defeat they might gain experience as a whole. When more of your people survive battles because their senior officers retreat when it is hopeless rather than fight to the death you tend to get more experienced people for the next battle not less.

People who win a war don’t tend to change. The Soviet system actually works adequately. It’s how they won WW2. And if Haven just won a war, the idea that they will decide to celebrate the victory by changing the system that got them that victory and instead spend a huge pile on better pay for long-service enlisted experts or lots more on training their conscrips and/or replacing their entire fleet with better designs seems pretty unlikely. This is a time to cut the budget, not massively increase it.

kzt wrote:People who win a war don’t tend to change. The Soviet system actually works adequately. It’s how they won WW2. And if Haven just won a war, the idea that they will decide to celebrate the victory by changing the system that got them that victory and instead spend a huge pile on better pay for long-service enlisted experts or lots more on training their conscrips and/or replacing their entire fleet with better designs seems pretty unlikely. This is a time to cut the budget, not massively increase it.

Yes, and in this case, the way its presented we have a navy that just fought a war against ne of the best trained navies in existence... a five year war, where every error, every shortcoming is magnified weather you see it or understand it while engaged in the war is a different matter.

They may not be overhauling their entire system by the end of a 5 years war but it forces change a lot more than a hundred attacks against heavily outnumbered, outgunned and isolated navies like the PN was used to. The Soviet Army that engaged the Germans in 22 June 1941 is not the same Army that wrapped up the war in May of 1945, they had tremendous changes forced on them out of necessity.


Between February 1922 and January 1923 there would be not that many lessons learned for the SLN because the people who learned the lessons are either captured, killed or ridiculed by their peers. The People's Navy on the other hand would bring lessons they have learned back to Haven and the Legislaturalists would have loosened the rules to allow for new blood in the officer corps, if this was set 10-20 years later it might be a different question, but immediately after the war the lessons would still be there as will the experience they earned.

tlb wrote:Maybe they would be inexperienced initially, but shouldn't there be training while on that BB to bring them up to naval standards? So the BB fleet could serve as the training grounds for Navy enlisted crew.

[quote="Sigs"Unless its an emergency "improperly crewed" shouldn't happen. They may be inexperienced, some BB's might have poor leadership but as a whole? They shouldn't be. They could have a bigger share of new officers and enlisted for training purposes but they should still be capable of operating the ship.[/quote]

True, but if the PN reassigns the good ones to the mainline SDs and DNs it is constantly commissioning, the BBs are in a constant state of training and underperformance.

The PN Admiralty could have allowed the performance and efficiency indicators of the BB fleet to remain just this side of acceptable. Operational, able to handle a BC division that comes to visit and keep the lights on at the same time, but nowhere near great.

After the war started, that's a different story. Once those BBs were needed on the front, they'd need to improve their performance. The threat of facing actual battle will do that.