Alternate history: PRH-Solarian War

kzt wrote:The new government started pulling them out, after they shot most of the competent admirals and yet they still kept losing to the MA.

The new government had a different approach to keeping control, involving propaganda and mass executions. There is no new government in this scenario, just the one that deployed hundreds of BBs for security.

So in your mind, in 1810's Haven's government looked at each other and said "Gee I think we need to have Battleships that can fire 30 missiles per broadside to oppress our occupied systems... and only to oppress those systems..." so they came up with Triumphant-Class, a class of BB that was incidentally introduced into service as the RMN and the other potential targets had BB's in their order of battle? A Battleships that until 1850-1870 had a place in capital ships battles because half of the RMN's wall was made of Battleships? A Battleships that was used to expand the Republic during a time when most of their targets likely had nothing heavier than battleships if that? Is that what we are talking about?

Also are we talking about the old government which maintained an entire planet as a boogeyman prison? Do you think that State Security was created to fill a gap that was just soooooo missing in the People's Republic? Because as far as I remember they took over from internal security, mental hygiene police and pretty much every security apparatus of the Republic and all of their Intelligence Gathering agencies. The Legislaturalists were not boy scouts, they were a brutal regime in their own right that oppressed its own people with propaganda, fear and violence...state security just took it to a whole new level.

But running capital vessels is not cheap. They require lots of expensive support and service. They also have to have something like half of as many people running the BBs as they do running the first line capital ships of the PRN. So obviously they think it’s worth it and they feel they can’t easily be replaced by much cheaper and more economical in manpower light vessels.

Let me try to explain it to you again. Those battleships were used in Front line service until the RMN began retiring the Thorsten class of Battleships in the 1860's and 1870's incidentally 40+ years after the PN BB's were introduced into service... So once the RMN moves away from battleships into an exclusively DN/SD wall like they did in 1880 and onward, Haven was at a cross roads, their first option was to keep the battleships in rear area security to protect against raids deep into the republic, or at least make it harder to do those raids and those battleships would form a reserve of powerful capital ships just incase they are needed and incidentally be in system to help keep a lid on every rebellion. Or they could retire them, replace them with smaller significantly less capable escorts and have 370 capital ships less in their fleet.

So what they likely decided was to keep the battleships for rear security to make sure that any deep raids were very expensive and resource intensive for any enemy that could conduct them. At the same time they will have them as a reserve to draw on if they were even in need and the battleships would conveniently be in the conquered systems demonstrating the power of the People's Republic.


The RMN used purpose build Broadswords for system control, the IAN used cruisers and destroyers for system control, Frontier Fleet used Battle Cruisers, Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers and here is the People's Navy having to use battleships because the occupied systems are populated by a special brand of people that can take on anything short of a battleships from the ground. When we view it that way I can see why the People's Navy designed a class of battleships just specifically for crowd control...

Theemile wrote:
A lot of readers seem to think the PRN BBs were old - in fact the PRN ships were contemporaries of the PRN SD/DN fleet, and (per Jayne's) were still under low volume construction in 1905. The modern design (The Triumphant class) received tech updates before other fleet classes due to their "standard" design, large #s and upgrade availability.

None of the BBs of the PRN were cast offs from another era - they were all custom designed for the current situation - ie rear area defense and internal pacification. Their size allowed them to defeat any remains of any pacified system's navy which might have survived, or any ships a liberation movement might happen to purchase. In addition, their large integrated Marine force gives a ready pacification force separate from any planetary force - which might be inflitrated by local rebellions or "go native" and actively assist any rebellions. In short, they were a constant reminder of the power of the nation which had conquered the plant, and a weapon constantly hanging over their heads that they could never hope to counter.

I think that when they were first introduced into service in 1823, most of the targets Haven wanted to conquer were armed with nothing heavier than battleships, so having battleships in their order was preferable so spending money on DN's and SD's when a BB can do the same job and you can get more of them than you can SD's. But when the RMN started expanding with exclusively DN's and SD's and ignored battleships altogether Haven really didn't have much of a choice, they could keep them in the wall and suffer disproportionate casualties or they could repurpose them for rear area security thus freeing up more capable DN's and SD's for frontline duties. In 1823 the systems that the People's Republic wanted to take over had different heavy units than those in 1890 or 1905. They served their purpose and were re-designated for rear area security once the opponents started getting bigger heavy units.

kzt wrote:Every yard that the SL has can produce modern effective combatants.

Highly unlikely, at least initially. A yard specializing in building 7 mton bulk freighters, or luxurious private yachts, isn't going to know the first thing about constructing an effective warship and won't have the supply chain to provide the military equipment to go into one. The majority of ship building demand in the League has been civilian ships and I've no reason to believe that a yard that's never built or worked on a warship will be able to quickly or seamlessly transition from what they've always built to churning out current SLN combatants.

That can be remedied; but doing so will take time.

Sigs wrote:And what can a Battleship do that a light cruiser or destroyer not do when oppressing a planet with no heavy weapons on the ground that could harm a ship in orbit and no spaceborne assets?

Possibly overawe recalcitrant planets in a way a smaller ship couldn't. Kind of an internal version of showing the flag.

But a BB would carry more pinnaces and shuttles and a larger marine force that a DD or CL. So it'd be more capable of intervening on the surface in ways other than orbital bombardment.

OTOH if all you need is marines and assault shuttles a transport, a CA dedicated to landing forces (like the RMN Broadswords) or even an orbital or isolated ground base gives you a quick reaction landing force for a fraction of the investment of a BB.

But as Theemile pointed out the Triumphant class started coming into service relatively recently, 1823, and kept in limited production until 1905. So I agree with him that one of their their primary purposes was security against navies in exile of various recently conquered systems. A BB or 2 is plenty to stand up to any ships those ex-governments are likely to be able to muster; in a way lighter units wouldn't be. The fact that, as war with Manticore became more likely, they also blunted the RMNs preferred tactic of BC raids would be a nice bonus and a reason to avoid retiring them as it became clear that a) the various conquered systems no longer had anything in the way of navies in exile (if they ever did) and b) that BBs no longer belonged in the wall of battle.

Jonathan_S wrote:Highly unlikely, at least initially. A yard specializing in building 7 mton bulk freighters, or luxurious private yachts, isn't going to know the first thing about constructing an effective warship and won't have the supply chain to provide the military equipment to go into one. The majority of ship building demand in the League has been civilian ships and I've no reason to believe that a yard that's never built or worked on a warship will be able to quickly or seamlessly transition from what they've always built to churning out current SLN combatants.

I should have been more specific, every yard in the League has the ability to produce warships after a proper conversion. This doesn't mean that the League will immediately start pumping out SD's, but within 2-3 years they would have increased their yards dramatically. They have the industry, and within 1-3 years they could start laying down ships if they had to.

That can be remedied; but doing so will take time.

Should have been clear, yes it will take time, it wont be declare war on the People's Republic on 24 June 1910 and the next day lay down new SD's in a yard that has build exclusively merchant ships for the last 500 years. It will take time, but the SLN has such a large industry that they can, if given time to mobilize it catch up and then greatly surpass virtually anyone.

Take 1921 Manticore, Grayson, Haven, Andermani, Erewhon and Beowulf, Pre OB. These nations might be able to build 1250 SD's between 1921 and 1923, they could lay down a further 1250 SD's in 1923 and expand their yards between 1921 and 1923 to another 500 SD's under construction while the LEague starts off by mobilizing everyone of their military yards and build 300 SD's between 1921 and 1923 but by 1923 they might have converted enough of their capacity to lay down 2,000 SD's, by 1924 another 1,000 and by 1925 another 2,000. It's not instantaneous but they have the ability to do it in a reasonable time, they have the ability to expand faster and further than the alliance weather its Haven and the Andermani Empire or the Grand Alliance... all they need is time.

Possibly overawe recalcitrant planets in a way a smaller ship couldn't. Kind of an internal version of showing the flag.

That's not a permanent job, Frontier Fleet used BC's, CA's, CL's and DD's because they were the right ships for the job and everyone knew there were thousands of SD's that the SLN could bring down on anyone who dares oppose them. Having lighter combatants picketing restless systems knowing that there are 400+ SD's in the People's Navy has the same effect as putting a BB in every system.

But a BB would carry more pinnaces and shuttles and a larger marine force that a DD or CL. So it'd be more capable of intervening on the surface in ways other than orbital bombardment.

Well, 4 Warlord Class BC's give you 1,200 Marines and more Pinnaces and Shuttles than one Triumphant-Class BB that has 500 Marines. If you are designing something for population control, designing something like the RMN's Broadsword but doubling or tripling in size can give you room for a brigade of Marines, assault Shuttles, ground attack Aircraft, tanks, armoured vehicles etc... something that a battleship cannot and does not do. So having 4 1,000,000 ton system control Battlecruisers with 1,000 Marines each seems like a better investment than having 1 4,500,000 ton Battleship with 500 Marines on it.

Hell they could have done the same job with 1/4 the Battleships and used the rest of the resources to build system control cruisers, if there is a problem everyone knows that there are 90 Battleships that can be called on without bothering the SD's in the main fleet. But they instead kept 374 battleships and it had less to do with internal security and more to do with protection against external threats.

But as Theemile pointed out the Triumphant class started coming into service relatively recently, 1823, and kept in limited production until 1905. So I agree with him that one of their their primary purposes was security against navies in exile of various recently conquered systems. A BB or 2 is plenty to stand up to any ships those ex-governments are likely to be able to muster; in a way lighter units wouldn't be. The fact that, as war with Manticore became more likely, they also blunted the RMNs preferred tactic of BC raids would be a nice bonus and a reason to avoid retiring them as it became clear that a) the various conquered systems no longer had anything in the way of navies in exile (if they ever did) and b) that BBs no longer belonged in the wall of battle.

This is pretty much it, if the BB's were retired the RMN BC's would have a field day and force the PN to redeploy DN's and SD's to systems to prevent those raids, which would allow the RMN to defeat them in detail... Imagine the PN having to disperse SD's and DN's to 100 systems to prevent a division or two of BC's from wreaking havoc in their rear, and then having the RMN gather a fleet of 20 SD's and hit 40-50 of those systems and wipe out 40-50 Havenite SD's for no losses of their own.

Jonathan_S wrote:Possibly overawe recalcitrant planets in a way a smaller ship couldn't. Kind of an internal version of showing the flag.

But a BB would carry more pinnaces and shuttles and a larger marine force that a DD or CL. So it'd be more capable of intervening on the surface in ways other than orbital bombardment.

OTOH if all you need is marines and assault shuttles a transport, a CA dedicated to landing forces (like the RMN Broadswords) or even an orbital or isolated ground base gives you a quick reaction landing force for a fraction of the investment of a BB.

But as Theemile pointed out the Triumphant class started coming into service relatively recently, 1823, and kept in limited production until 1905. So I agree with him that one of their their primary purposes was security against navies in exile of various recently conquered systems. A BB or 2 is plenty to stand up to any ships those ex-governments are likely to be able to muster; in a way lighter units wouldn't be. The fact that, as war with Manticore became more likely, they also blunted the RMNs preferred tactic of BC raids would be a nice bonus and a reason to avoid retiring them as it became clear that a) the various conquered systems no longer had anything in the way of navies in exile (if they ever did) and b) that BBs no longer belonged in the wall of battle.

From EoH we learned of 2 captured systems which fielded forces that waged a fight after the fall of the system - San Martin and Pegasus. Ramierez and a captain from Pegasus were on Hades after their capture due to their conducting raids after their systems fell. In the Jayne's errata, a Triumphant BB in the Morell system put down a rebellion which fielded 2 BCs and required multiple marine drops. It was sufficiently interesting that the PRH made a epic holo series about the incident. It doesn't seem to be a rare issue.

Theemile wrote:In the Jayne's errata, a Triumphant BB in the Morell system put down a rebellion which fielded 2 BCs and required multiple marine drops. It was sufficiently interesting that the PRH made a epic holo series about the incident. It doesn't seem to be a rare issue.

BC's don't just fall in the hands of rebels, BC's are ships that the PN didn't capture/destroy and they returned to the system for raids or an attempt to liberate their home. I highly doubt that it was someone buying a couple of BC's, equipping them, manning them for the rebellion.

Sigs wrote:

Theemile wrote:In the Jayne's errata, a Triumphant BB in the Morell system put down a rebellion which fielded 2 BCs and required multiple marine drops. It was sufficiently interesting that the PRH made a epic holo series about the incident. It doesn't seem to be a rare issue.

BC's don't just fall in the hands of rebels, BC's are ships that the PN didn't capture/destroy and they returned to the system for raids or an attempt to liberate their home. I highly doubt that it was someone buying a couple of BC's, equipping them, manning them for the rebellion.

They are not rebels, they are the legitimate interstellar recognized government. They just happen to not have full possession right now.

Sigs wrote:This is pretty much it, if the BB's were retired the RMN BC's would have a field day and force the PN to redeploy DN's and SD's to systems to prevent those raids, which would allow the RMN to defeat them in detail... Imagine the PN having to disperse SD's and DN's to 100 systems to prevent a division or two of BC's from wreaking havoc in their rear, and then having the RMN gather a fleet of 20 SD's and hit 40-50 of those systems and wipe out 40-50 Havenite SD's for no losses of their own.

Well sufficient Peep BCs could also have provided security. But a defending Peep BC force probably needs a 50% advantage in numbers to hold off RMN raiders (if we ignore pods).

But Peep BBs can probably pull that off handily against at least twice their numbers of BCs bring.


And while you can build and man BCs cheaper than BBs, it's not 1/3rd cheaper. Which makes BBs a more cost effective method of rear area defense against RMN BC based raids than swarms of BCs (given their relative combat effectiveness against RMN BCs)

kzt wrote:They are not rebels, they are the legitimate interstellar recognized government. They just happen to not have full possession right now.

It could also happen if they have a foreign sponsor giving them money and/or assets. Or a corrupt government that will a turn a blind eye when you abscond with BCs *cough* Silesia *cough*.

I also suppose that there are a lot of BC classes throughout the known Galaxy. Not very good ones, mind you, probably crappy enough that they would even avoid confrontation against a Peep Mars-class CA they barely outweigh. But enough that a government in exile or rebels (depending on your point of view) with access to some out-system funds could purchase.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

kzt wrote:They are not rebels, they are the legitimate interstellar recognized government. They just happen to not have full possession right now.

It could also happen if they have a foreign sponsor giving them money and/or assets. Or a corrupt government that will a turn a blind eye when you abscond with BCs *cough* Silesia *cough*.

I also suppose that there are a lot of BC classes throughout the known Galaxy. Not very good ones, mind you, probably crappy enough that they would even avoid confrontation against a Peep Mars-class CA they barely outweigh. But enough that a government in exile or rebels (depending on your point of view) with access to some out-system funds could purchase.

Goverments who didn’t like the PRH, and I’ve heard there might be some, might even donate a little something.