?

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Still, I've always agreed with David Weber's characterization that the spider drive ships are pretty analogous to submarines; and therefor to submarine warfare and tactics. I merely try to point out that not every analogy to a WWI or WWII submarine or submarine tactic necessarily applies.
So when a tactic is suggested that the Honorverse technologies and situation doesn't seem to support I'm going to try to explain why that tactic or analogy isn't applicable. But that is not in any way a rejection of the idea that Lenny Dets are sub-like; and like subs will tend to focus on ambush hunting.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I agree that the tactics may make sense, except for one glaring change, which is that both the ships and the weapons are slower than their opponents, rather than faster. Because of this, there may be many an engagement where the MAlign ship can't force action because it can't get to a position it needs to be. It also means it will have difficulty running if discovered.

It is only very recently, with subs optimized for underwater running, that a submerged sub had comparable speed to a surface ship. In the war, either a sub had to run on the surface to catch a convoy or manage to place itself in front and have the convoy come to it.

The strategy of placing itself into the projected path within the hyper limit will still work. But the slower speeds mean if the LD is out of position then it cannot force action.

When they couldn't force action, oftentimes they went into stalk mode. The End Around tactic is pretty much "heading 'em off at the pass." Wolfpack tactics hunted like packs of wolves. Wolves had patience and stamina.

One tactic of the SS was to attempt a torpedo hit at the very limit of their range causing a target to zigzag. His Crazy Ivan allows the sub to catch up, and even overtake him at times.

In the opening battles, the GA will not be using a zigzag pattern and will be caught with pants down out of sheer shock.

My point is that the tactic's time has come, and complacence, time, and the cost of being in a perpetual state of DEFCON 1 isn't realistic. I have faith that an Honorverse TDC can hit a starship on the run with a football shaped projectile. LOL

"Go long for a bomb!"

cthia wrote:One tactic of the SS was to attempt a torpedo hit at the very limit of their range causing a target to zigzag.

"SS" = Submarine Service? Since the German wartime unit that we normally think of as "SS" did not go to sea in subs.

cthia wrote:In the opening battles, the GA will not be using a zigzag pattern and will be caught with pants down out of sheer shock.

Why won't they already be practicing evasive courses right now? They know the MAlign has stealth technology and has manage to insert them into systems with a lot of traffic, twice.

My point is that the tactic's time has come, and complacence, time, and the cost of being in a perpetual state of DEFCON 1 isn't realistic. I have faith that an Honorverse TDC can hit a starship on the run with a football shaped projectile. LOL

"Go long for a bomb!"

You don't need DEFCON-1 to keep a zig-zag-zug (because it's 3D) patrol course. Keep the ships in the fleet also exchanging positions and rotating their wedges around their longitudinal axes too.

Keeping sidewalls and sternwalls up might require at least DEFCON-2.

As for a TDC hitting a starship with a projectile, no it can't. By definition, a projectile is ballistic and on a fixed course after acceleration, influenced only by the gravity of the objects it's near. On the other hand, if it's a torpedo or missile that can manoeuvre, then it may be able to hit a target that is also manoeuvring, provided there's a possible intercept solution in the first place.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:One tactic of the SS was to attempt a torpedo hit at the very limit of their range causing a target to zigzag.

"SS" = Submarine Service? Since the German wartime unit that we normally think of as "SS" did not go to sea in subs.

I read that as "Ssubmarine", like DD is Ddestroyer and BB is Bbattleship.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:In the opening battles, the GA will not be using a zigzag pattern and will be caught with pants down out of sheer shock.

Why won't they already be practicing evasive courses right now? They know the MAlign has stealth technology and has manage to insert them into systems with a lot of traffic, twice.

My point is that the tactic's time has come, and complacence, time, and the cost of being in a perpetual state of DEFCON 1 isn't realistic. I have faith that an Honorverse TDC can hit a starship on the run with a football shaped projectile. LOL

"Go long for a bomb!"

You don't need DEFCON-1 to keep a zig-zag-zug (because it's 3D) patrol course. Keep the ships in the fleet also exchanging positions and rotating their wedges around their longitudinal axes too.

Keeping sidewalls and sternwalls up might require at least DEFCON-2.

As for a TDC hitting a starship with a projectile, no it can't. By definition, a projectile is ballistic and on a fixed course after acceleration, influenced only by the gravity of the objects it's near. On the other hand, if it's a torpedo or missile that can manoeuvre, then it may be able to hit a target that is also manoeuvring, provided there's a possible intercept solution in the first place.

"SS" should have been "US." It was one of our tactics. I don't doubt other navies used it as well.

I'm certain ships practice evasive maneuvers, but in the midst of battle. Not as a matter of course. I don't mean to imply there isn't an occasional course change just in case. But, a course change every so often is not a zig zag pattern. Constantly adopting a zig zag pattern will drive a fleet crazy. (Especially the wet navy.) And, maintaining the practice, even after it is adopted, will always be subject to the laziness, irresponsibility, arrogance, and the weight of the human element.

Which brings me to another notion. Maintaining DEFCON 1 is taxing on resources, morals, warships, and people. Once the MaLign attacks and the zig zag pattern is adopted, crew are going to be put to the test and worn thin. The MA will give some of the RMN back to them by wearing them out, jumping in and out of systems. You can't sleep when there are sharks in the water.

cthia wrote:I'm certain ships practice evasive maneuvers, but in the midst of battle. Not as a matter of course. I don't mean to imply there isn't an occasional course change just in case. But, a course change every so often is not a zig zag pattern. Constantly adopting a zig zag pattern will drive a fleet crazy. (Especially the wet navy.) And, maintaining the practice, even after it is adopted, will always be subject to the laziness, irresponsibility, arrogance, and the weight of the human element.

I meant that a non-periodic course change is sufficient to throw long-range aiming of the LD off. If the fleet doesn't have to go anywhere special, it can simply keep moving towards random points. And since they have 3x the acceleration, the LD can't close with them. So no close action and no long-range action either.

There's one problem with this: the GA doesn't now they have 3x acceleration. It's possible Simões knew that the spider had limited acceleration, but from what we've seen I don't think he knew much more than the existence of the technology. Everything was kept compartmentalised.

cthia wrote:@Theemile,

Nice post. But...

Second best stealth? Drinking too much horse exlixir?

I look at the analogy taking the form of WW II submarine tactics and WW II performance of the LD, armed with a nuclear sub's WMD. Against twentieth century acceleration and, of course, weaponry.

Today's nuclear subs are doing much better than the SL as far as cutting into the accel advantage of enemy BBs and Carriers.

The Soviets had a sub that set an unbroken record of 61 mph. Cost killed the cause.

Anyways, I envision the LDs as having very powerful energy weapons, in case it finds itself in close company. And for the times it actually feels like getting all up close and personal.

We have never seen the MAlign stealth a wedge. Manty tech can do so. MAlign tech stealths spider drives which work... Differently... So opponents don't realize what they are seeing before the stealth suite comes into play. It could very well by Manty tech is better at stealthing conventional ships, but the spider and MAlign stealth is a better stealth combo.

Theemile wrote:
We have never seen the MAlign stealth a wedge. Manty tech can do so. MAlign tech stealths spider drives which work... Differently... So opponents don't realize what they are seeing before the stealth suite comes into play. It could very well by Manty tech is better at stealthing conventional ships, but the spider and MAlign stealth is a better stealth combo.

Before David went all spear armed natives vs tanks SLN stealth was stated to be very good.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:@Theemile,

Nice post. But...

Second best stealth? Drinking too much horse exlixir?

I look at the analogy taking the form of WW II submarine tactics and WW II performance of the LD, armed with a nuclear sub's WMD. Against twentieth century acceleration and, of course, weaponry.

Today's nuclear subs are doing much better than the SL as far as cutting into the accel advantage of enemy BBs and Carriers.

The Soviets had a sub that set an unbroken record of 61 mph. Cost killed the cause.

Anyways, I envision the LDs as having very powerful energy weapons, in case it finds itself in close company. And for the times it actually feels like getting all up close and personal.

We have never seen the MAlign stealth a wedge. Manty tech can do so. MAlign tech stealths spider drives which work... Differently... So opponents don't realize what they are seeing before the stealth suite comes into play. It could very well by Manty tech is better at stealthing conventional ships, but the spider and MAlign stealth is a better stealth combo.

I thought the judge banged his gavel on that ruling beginning here.

As I told Weird Harold "The overarching objective of any navy is to hide a warship, not hide a wedge."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I'm certain ships practice evasive maneuvers, but in the midst of battle. Not as a matter of course. I don't mean to imply there isn't an occasional course change just in case. But, a course change every so often is not a zig zag pattern. Constantly adopting a zig zag pattern will drive a fleet crazy. (Especially the wet navy.) And, maintaining the practice, even after it is adopted, will always be subject to the laziness, irresponsibility, arrogance, and the weight of the human element.

I meant that a non-periodic course change is sufficient to throw long-range aiming of the LD off. If the fleet doesn't have to go anywhere special, it can simply keep moving towards random points. And since they have 3x the acceleration, the LD can't close with them. So no close action and no long-range action either.

There's one problem with this: the GA doesn't now they have 3x acceleration. It's possible Simões knew that the spider had limited acceleration, but from what we've seen I don't think he knew much more than the existence of the technology. Everything was kept compartmentalised.

Would a non-periodic course change be enough to stop a sniper at his most extreme distance?

A non-periodic course change isn't going to be enough. For starters, you don't know the LD's range. You have to constantly zig zag.

The Manties don't run scared worth a damn. But against this foe, he may have to just RUN. And again, we must not forget the LD may be forcing, corraling, the prey like lions. And let's not forget the torpedo spread pattern. Which is why I said it would be interesting if the LD launched a spread of torps. On this 3D battle field.