Alternate history: PRH-Solarian War

Theemile wrote:
we're not discussing MDM's right? Single drive missile won't have the range to hit ships at the hyper limit.

They would if they are placed near the hyper limit.

Place Pods near the hyper limit in the most likely approaches, start hitting as soon as they enter range...hell even if you blind fire 50,000 missiles from close range chances are you get a lot of hits, go closer into the system they enter range to another group.

Think of it as speed bumps, you wouldn't stack all of the speed pumps one on top of the other in front of a store to slow down trafic, and they wouldn't put them one immediately after the other, they would be placed say every 20-30 feet...that would be the pods.

Every x million km they have another batch of pods(5,000-10,000 pods). They would be entering into range of the pods all the way into the system, unless they freak out and try to leave at which point they get hit by pods on the way out as well.

We are talking nightingale level pods. You get a big, heavy initial strike, and then you are done. After a another 10-15 lighter salvos you get to energy range.

Look at Flag In Exile, just with a whole lot more ships.

And the SL is at war with Haven. The head of the snake is at Haven. They are not going to screw around, they are going to go right for Haven. Along with whatever SLN SDFs they can manage to rustle up, since you are postulating that this is attack on someone who the SL has a defense treaty with and hence the SL can declare war and dragoon the SDFs.

Sigs wrote:

Theemile wrote:
we're not discussing MDM's right? Single drive missile won't have the range to hit ships at the hyper limit.

They would if they are placed near the hyper limit.

Place Pods near the hyper limit in the most likely approaches, start hitting as soon as they enter range...hell even if you blind fire 50,000 missiles from close range chances are you get a lot of hits, go closer into the system they enter range to another group.

Think of it as speed bumps, you wouldn't stack all of the speed pumps one on top of the other in front of a store to slow down trafic, and they wouldn't put them one immediately after the other, they would be placed say every 20-30 feet...that would be the pods.

Every x million km they have another batch of pods(5,000-10,000 pods). They would be entering into range of the pods all the way into the system, unless they freak out and try to leave at which point they get hit by pods on the way out as well.

No, you will just throw all your pods away. You have this huge fleet parked out at the hyperlimit along with all your pods. When the SLN drops in on the other side of the system and starts driving at Haven you are just screwed. And they will know where you are if you have entire fleet there.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Not sure I'd assign the BBs as much value as you did, but even on the low bar, those ships can be used to tow pods and to control some missiles off them. Maybe the PN can refit them cheaply, removing some broadside launchers and adding more control links.

I am basing my assumptions on the information from the wiki. A Triumphant has 72 missile tubes total and a Scientist has 32 tubes per broadside. So A Triumphant BB has 36 Tubes per broadside to a Scientist’s 32. So even if we assume that the BB is firing smaller less capable missiles they would still be firing more missiles per broadside than a Scientist. Their Energy armament is 1/3 that of a Scientist so they just have to stay away from energy range. A Triumphant has about 22 CM tubes per broadside compared to a Scientist 16 and 26 PD Lasers to a Scientist’s 32 PD lasers. They may have less munitions for the CM and missiles but they require probably less power for the energy weapons. So at 66% of the size of a Scientist they have a lot of firepower. First Battle of Seabring had 11 RMN DN’s vs 10 PN BB’s and the result was the PN BB’s heavily damaged 45% of the RMN DN’s and destroyed 9% of the RMN DN while losing 100% of their force. If we take into account the assumption of a BB being 75% of a SLN superdreadnought that would mean that in that battle the BB’s were actually the equivalent of 7.5 PN dreadnaught facing 11 RMN Dreadnaughts with more capable crews and technologically superior. So if the PN had 15 Battleships in that Battle the outcome might have been different, the BB’s might have suffered upwards to 80% casualties still but the DN’s would have suffered more maybe 5+ destroyed and the rest damaged.

My point is that against RMN SD’s which are nearly double their size and a lot of EW they would be no match, probably 2-1 or 2.5 to 1 because of the RMN’s tech advantage but against SLN SD’s which are I reality DN sized with assumed slight technological inferiority, inexperienced crews, arrogance of leadership and the fact that it’s just neobarb BB’s vs SLN SD’s I would say 3 PN BB’s to 2 SLN SD’s would be victory for the PN with damaged BB’s but destroyed SLN SD’s.

If this research staff that escaped Manticore began working with TIY and other contractors, would they notice the MAlign infiltration? Would then stop cooperating when they noticed how thoroughly corrupt those transstellars are? Remember the BSDF had slightly better SDs than the SLN per se, because they didn't share much.

They could concentrate all of the research staff in Beowulf all R and D in Beowulf with SLN funding. Beowulf is a League member and their understanding might be to work with the RMN and Manticore’s government in exile to recapture Manticore. They can give the SLN just enough to even the score and research more while keeping it under wraps.

Similarly, would Honor work with the SLN, knowing what FF does? Do the ends justify the means? Or would she sit out, enjoying a comfortable commission as Commodore in the BSDF? Or maybe a third option: perform sorties against the PN and try to liberate Grayson to establish a beachhead, but not actively collaborate with the SLN?

Grayson is a hell of a long way from Beowulf, even if they recapture Grayson they will be hundreds of LY from help while the PN is close by. Besides, if your home nation is captured the actions of your potential allies are not as important. Think British and Soviet Union. The Soviets didn’t have their hands clean, they killed a lot of their own people before and during the war but the British and later the Americans were happy to have them on their side if for no other reason than that they killed Germans and soaked up a lot of German firepower leaving the west weaker.

With this much Manticoran candy dangled before their eyes and the opportunity to accomplish the goals of fragmenting the league and annihilating the PRH, the MAlign would act. They can't let the SLN simply overwhelm the PRH/AE alliance, so they'd try to sabotage. This is way too early for the Ghosts and Sharks, so no Oyster Bay in Beowulf, though.

They will act but that can come in multiple forms, assassination of key reseaerchers in the League but also pushing the SLN into making mistakes. They can work to Fragment the League from the inside as soon as the shipyards come into play. Imagine the SLN gets its hands on 600-800 SD(P)’s as its falling apart, those SD(P)’s fall into newly independent systems hands they will have a unified alliance on one front and multiple independent systems with modern weapons on the other.

I am basing my assumptions on the information from the wiki. A Triumphant has 72 missile tubes total and a Scientist has 32 tubes per broadside. So A Triumphant BB has 36 Tubes per broadside to a Scientist’s 32.

There’s certain to be a few launchers as chase armament, so you’re looking at less than 36 tubes per broadside. I don’t have Flag in Exile in front of me, but I’m certain they list the actual number of tubes during Fourth Yeltsin.

kzt wrote:We are talking nightingale level pods. You get a big, heavy initial strike, and then you are done. After a another 10-15 lighter salvos you get to energy range.

Look at Flag In Exile, just with a whole lot more ships.

And the SL is at war with Haven. The head of the snake is at Haven. They are not going to screw around, they are going to go right for Haven. Along with whatever SLN SDFs they can manage to rustle up, since you are postulating that this is attack on someone who the SL has a defense treaty with and hence the SL can declare war and dragoon the SDFs.

Ok, they get into Haven 1,000 SD's, face a PN force equivalent of 300 SLN SD's and 1 million pods backed up by forts. The PN DN might be 20,000,000 km away from the SLN SD's, but the pods might be 2,000,000 km away from the SLN SD's. Fire those off, then when they enter range of the next group of pods, fire those off, when they enter range of the next group fire those off etc... by the time they enter the range of the shipborne weapons the odds are a hell of a lot closer.


Even if the SLN wins, you end up with a heavily damaged fleet, 600 LY away from the nearest shipyard, in the middle of enemy territory, the SLN is down to half their wall plus whatever damaged SD's are in haven while the Alliance is down 1 major industrial system and 21.5% of their wall. At this point they have the equivalent of 1,100 SD's to the SLN's 1,000 SD's plus a few hundred damaged SLN ships in Haven and the Alliance can go crush those, redeploy to Joshua and start hitting the League from the other front.

Duckk wrote:

I am basing my assumptions on the information from the wiki. A Triumphant has 72 missile tubes total and a Scientist has 32 tubes per broadside. So A Triumphant BB has 36 Tubes per broadside to a Scientist’s 32.

There’s certain to be a few launchers as chase armament, so you’re looking at less than 36 tubes per broadside. I don’t have Flag in Exile in front of me, but I’m certain they list the actual number of tubes during Fourth Yeltsin.

According to flag in exile, the 36 BB's had 2 times as much firepower in missiles as the 6 refurbished Duquesne-class SD's.
Problem with the description is that the 36 BB's are described to have 15% of the energy armament of the SD's and 30% of the missile armament of the SD's which supposedly adds up to 45% of the firepower of the SD's... but 15%=15/100 and 30%=30/100, so (15+30)/200=22.5% of the firepower of an SD which means that the PN would need 22,000,000 tons of BB for 8,000,000 tons of Duquesne-class SD.
In the Companion the Manticore’s Gift Class is stated to have 36m broadside. If we use the description from Flag in Exile and the Companion we get 216 missile broadside for the ^ Manticore’s Gift SD’s in 4th Yeltsin and if the PN had 2X the missile firepower they can throw 432 missiles salvos in a prolonged battle… so either there would be 36 BB’s in the fleet facing them or 16 Convert Class Battlecruisers. So basically a missile heavy BB has half the broadside of a warlord class BC… either there is a major mistake or the PN should really fire the guy who designs and designates the classes.
A convert Class BC which was a captured Warlord had 26 tubes/broadside and 6 tubes/chase. If we use those proportions for the BB's we get 8 Chase and 34 tubes/broadside. That's 34 missiles for every 32 of the scientist class SD's. But if we use the description from 4th Yeltsin a Convert has 26 tubes/broadside a Triumphant has 12 tubes/broadside and a Scientist has 32 tubes/broadside.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:In the spirit of discussing "what ifs" as in the [url=http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10484[/url]"GA-League War" thread[/url], what if the MAlign had got the war it wanted, between the People's Republic of Haven and the Solarian League? Let's say Parnell's Short Victorious War was victorious, but not a walk-over, ending circa 1910. There's no Committee of Public Safety to decimate the PRN's officer corps, but since the Manticoran Alliance was not a walk-over, the incompetent officers did get removed from the board.

As a direct conclusion of winning the war, the PRN has skilled officers with battle experience and has captured some of Manticore's research (see below). The PRH also gets a huge boost from the SKM economy, which will feed its failed state for a couple of decades. Plus they get an educated population, at least that which did not escape to Beowulf or New Berlin.

Speaking of which, the MAlign's hand is forced and the war starts when Beowulf decides to blockade its end of the wormhole after the fall of Manticore. Erewhon also falls, so the peeps control that wormhole, but that likewise triggers a Solarian response.

Let's say Haven has access to the following technologies:

• early, advanced compensators
• FTL transmitters
• Ghost Rider (recon drone)
• missile pods
• early runs of Dazzler, Dragon Teeth and MDMs
• prototypes for Shrike-class LACs, including compact fission reactors
• designs for CLACs and SD(P)s, which the PRN puts into immediate production

Some of those seem pretty unlikely. In 1910 the MDMs, Ghost Rider drones, and SD(P)s would have still be under discussions at BuWeaps. Their report agreeing to them was brand new when Honor talked to White Haven on Grayson (before heading out to get captured). I wasn't able to find a date for that talk, but she was "executed" in Jan 1912 and I don't think it was over a year from her leaving Grayson until her "execution".

Anything in the research, early design, or planning stages would be pretty easy to scrub and deny hard details of to Haven - though at least some staff are likely to end up questioned and reveal enough that Haven at least knows some areas to start researching (confused though by the likely hood that the same or other staff feed them false leads about Manticoran R&D as well). However the FTL transmitters, improved compensators and missile pods (though Haven was at least on their way to making their own by then) are too widely deployed to be likely to keep from Haven after a surrender.

So it seems unlikely, to me, that Haven would have that technology in service and deployed by the time the SLN rolled over the hyper limit. Though if Foraker still got exposed to the Wayfarer Q-ships in Silesia she'd be back and provided her report on their pod-laying capabilities. It wouldn't take much in the way of rumors that the RMN had been looking at expanding that from Q-ships to full up SDs to get Haven at least looking at SDM equipped SD(P)s. Those wouldn't be quite as devastating against the SLN as MDM equipped ones would be - because they couldn't freely stack pods due to having to fight within range of return fire. But if Haven had those deployed they'd still be able to repeatedly swamp SLN point defenses and should be able to handily win against 2-4 SLN SDs each.

Though another issue is whether Haven actually expects to have to go back to a major war soon. The whole reasons for their short victorious war was to gain cash flow and breathing room. They'd hoped to reduce naval spending afterwards. So President Harris might not be all that enthused about immediately obsoleting his whole navy to rebuild it around pod laying SDs - no unless he really sees the storm clouds of conflict with the SLN coming immediately (and yet they take several years so there's time to develop and deploy these new ships and technology).
After the navy he's already got is more than enough for internal security or picking off other minor systems (like Idaho) out beyond Manticore. So if he's thinking it'll be 50 years or so before having to think about coming up against another major opponent there might not be any of these new toys rolled out yet.

Duckk wrote:

I am basing my assumptions on the information from the wiki. A Triumphant has 72 missile tubes total and a Scientist has 32 tubes per broadside. So A Triumphant BB has 36 Tubes per broadside to a Scientist’s 32.

There’s certain to be a few launchers as chase armament, so you’re looking at less than 36 tubes per broadside. I don’t have Flag in Exile in front of me, but I’m certain they list the actual number of tubes during Fourth Yeltsin.

I didn't bother to try looking through Flag in Exile, but my cheat sheet says Jayne's listed the Triumphant-class at 30 tubes per broadside and 8 per hammerhead.

Still, that's almost as many broadside tubes as a Scientist, but on a 4.5 mton hull. And if I'm deciphering the launcher designation correctly they do carry capital weight missiles (though in an older launcher revision that the newer Haven DN and SD listed there); not the lighter medium missile launchers of the BCs.

five minutes later, fourteen hundred missiles erupted from the Allied "battlecruisers.” Havenite missiles answered almost instantly, but all twenty-four battleships between them could produce only seven hundred missiles in reply

Which comes to 29 or 30 tubes per broadside, depending if it is rounded up or down.

kzt wrote:
No, you will just throw all your pods away. You have this huge fleet parked out at the hyperlimit along with all your pods. When the SLN drops in on the other side of the system and starts driving at Haven you are just screwed. And they will know where you are if you have entire fleet there.

Do you need to fire off the pods from right next to the SD's in question? Or can you have the pods 10,000,000 km from your SDs and fire them?

You can have your SD's in the inner system and have missile pods in different approaches, as far as I understand it the pods don't have to be collocated with the SD's.