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wiki wrote:The end around was a World War II submarine tactic used when the position of a submarine (relative to a potential target) did not allow the submarine to mount an immediate attack. The submarine's crew estimated the enemy's bearing, heading, and speed, remaining submerged until out of the enemy's visual range. The submarine then surfaced and proceeded at maximum speed to a position in front of the target, near the target's predicted course but remaining out of view. The submarine would then submerge, approach, and attack.


The location from which a submarine could attack varied mostly according to the relative top speeds of the attacker and its target. Diesel-electric-powered submarines in the Second World War were typically capable of 18-23 knots on the surface under diesel power and up to 9 knots underwater, where they were restricted (if lacking a snorkel) to battery power. Battle fleets in World War II might have a top speed of up to 30 knots, making it difficult for submarines to achieve attack position. A convoy of freighters or tankers typically proceeded at up to 10 knots. Submarines, especially when submerged, were consequently sometimes slower than their prey. Attack opportunities would also be lost if the target detected the submarine and altered course to avoid attack.


Execution

To attack, a sub usually had to get ahead of its target: the end around was one solution to this problem. If a submarine couldn't attack due to unfavorable positioning, its crew determined the target's course and speed, then calculated a potential torpedo firing point. The end around might then proceed as follows.


- A two-attack end around maneuver




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1. The submarine attempts an initial attack. If spotted by the target or escorts, the sub then usually submerges.

2. The submarine moves away from the target (to get out of visual range), then surfaces.

3. The submarine proceeds at best speed to overtake and pass the target on a parallel course, using the curvature of the Earth, darkness, and weather events (such as rain, snow, and fog) to stay out of the target's view.

After gaining position ahead of the target, the submarine approaches, readies torpedoes and calculates an optimal attack.

4. The submarine executes the next attack, either while surfaced or submerged.

The process can be repeated as long as the sub is able to do so.

The end around tactic was useful largely because of submarines' low freeboard, which made them less visible than much-taller merchantmen and warships. Using the targets' upperworks and exhaust smoke to estimate and maintain proper distance, a skilled sub commander could maintain a close watch on enemy ships while keeping his own vessel unseen.


Other considerations

A modification to this tactic incorporated the night surface attack, where the submarine remained surfaced. This variation allowed the submarine to take advantage of its higher surface speed during the actual attack, but increased the likelihood of pre-attack detection, which in turn could result in a counterattack by opposing escorts and the targets turning, thus spoiling the attack. Surface attacks could be executed in daylight or to facilitate an attack using the sub's deck gun, again with added risk.

As a defense, ships in wartime can adopt zig-zag sailing patterns rather than practicing more-efficient great-circle navigation. Sailing in zig-zags made computing a target angle more difficult for the submarine crew, especially if the pattern was irregular. Instead of repetitively varying a 90° base course ten degrees either way (80°, 100°, 80°, 100°), a good commander practices irregular course changes: first 80°, then 110°, 95°, 75°, etc. Irregular zig-zagging obscures the target's base course, making interception harder to calculate and complicating the target solution. On the negative side, zig-zags slow a ship's progress to its destination, allowing the sub to overtake more quickly.

• Submarine Fire Control Manual

• The computing behemoth at the core of the LDs is centuries beyond the targeting data computer (TDC), running this ancient state_of-the-art beast.
  
  
• The (TDC) aboard the old sub was state-of-the-art in it's day. But it could only target one ship at a time, with never before dreamt accuracy of success rate of the LD's behemoth.
  
  
• The behemoths are selecting all targets simultaneously. The sitting ducks that are Home Fleet will collectively go BOOM in a perfectly synchronized symphony of explosions.
  
  
• BEWARE: The MA may use their ROOKS (FORTS) in a middle and end game fashion.

When you're out on exercises, you're in Shark infested waters. It may be better to remain in orbit. LOL

cthia wrote:With invisible forts on steroids, these can be placed outside the hyper limit as well. Enemies hyper in right on top of a fort. And don't even know it.

cthia wrote:
I have been told that warfare is not a chess match.

TRUE/FALSE

1. Every war is a chess match.
2. All Generals play chess.

If you don't see every battle as a chess match, you've already lost against this opponent.

George Eliot wrote:Fancy what a game of chess would be if all the chessmen had passions and intellects, more or less small and cunning; if you were not only uncertain about your adversary's men, but a little uncertain also about your own; if your knight could shuffle himself on to a new square by the sly; if your bishop, at your castling, could wheedle your pawns out of their places; and if your pawns, hating you because they are pawns, could make away from their appointed posts that you might get checkmate on a sudden. You might be the longest-headed of deductive reasoners, and yet you might be beaten by your own pawns. You would be especially likely to be beaten, if you depended arrogantly on your mathematical imagination, and regarded your passionate pieces with contempt. Yet this imaginary chess is easy compared with the game a man has to play against his fellow-men with other fellow-men for his instruments.

1. Surveillance and information gathering
   
   
2. Communication of data
   
   
3. Landing of special operations forces
   
   
4. Attack of land targets (first cruise missile fired from sub, Gulf War, USS Louisville, Jan 1991)
   
   
5. Protection of task forces and merchant shipping
   
   
6. Denial of sea areas to an enemy

Brigade XO wrote: They seem to be not inteneded to enter a direct threat enviornment so they are probably designed to stand off, possibly outside the hyper limit of a system, and deploy weapons systems.

On the other hand, for Systems that don't have the capabilites of Manticore, now Beowulf and a few others, one massive LD packed with GTs and other things would be devastating as it could take out the spaceborn infrastructure without exposing itself.

[ ]

Heck, you could have a few ships wandring around blowing up bits of all sorts of systems infrastructure- from vast distances- and force systems to commit resources to a probably futile effort to maintain anything in their systems that wasn't constantly -and probably randomly- changing vectors, orbital distances and speeds. Makes for really really messy operating orbital fabrication and habitat stations.

Thinks markedly wrote:And each LD can only fire once. If they fire twice and don't immediately hyper out, the average velocity vector can be calculated. If that point is within a powered missile envelope, the LD is practically doomed. In the 9 minutes it takes the missiles to arrive, the LD can only change its position along the baseline course by 215,000 km, or 360,000 km at emergency acceleration of 250 gravities. All the defenders need to do is bracket the possible locations and they'll likely hit or see a missile taken out by point defence. Either way, that's a third point for the vector calculation and the next missile salvo will be upon them.

Brigade XO wrote:You missed the point of the strengths of the LD's and weapons systems. They don't "fire" things like the Graser Torpedos, they expel them like using a mass driver (no energy flare). Ghosts to gather and compile tracking data at targets that the GTs will eventualy reach under powered flight using spider drives and - if you look back at Oyster Bay- the Sharks launched (don't remember mechanism) the various ballistic packages of weapons to take long trajectories in-system NO IMPELLER WEDGES. So, unless you have something tracking occlusion of stars (etc) or picking up reflected light (from what are probably matt black masked objects) or your weapons run too close to some ship with sensors running that will notice UNPOWERD blocks of metal hurtling in-system, nobody is going to see anything till the explosions start. And, at that point, all the Alighmente ships are probably already exiting the system under spider drive and so won't be noticed.

If you don't know the LD is there, you can't shoot at it and if you don't know the weapons are inbound you can't bring up your defences. One of the problems that Manticore faced even before starting to rebuild was that they were going to have to put anything orbital up there with SHIELDS IN PLACE ALL THE TIME. That is a massive amount of power use and if you are going to use a wedge to do part of that you have to put everything where you can let each discreat orbital object be way far enough from everything elce to probably randomly shift the directdion of where their wedges are oriented. That doesn't begin to deal with the routing of anything moving to or from your stations though some sort of shield maze to eliminate close direct fire.

Jonathan_S wrote:If they launch the huge and slow GTs then yes, the targets are likely going to be unaware they're under attack until the graser smashes into them. But a GT is huge compared to a missile.

Jonathan_S wrote:If instead, as you seemed to suggest, the Lenny Dets are leaving pods of missiles scattered around then the missiles show up as a unmissable flare on the target's sensors the instant their wedges come online. If you're fighting outside the hyper limit with missiles you need their flight time to be too short for their targets to simply hyper out - and that greatly limits the effective range of the missile. OTOH if you're patient and wait for the target to cross inside the hyper limit you can successfully attack them with missile from much further away because of how long it'd take the target to break back out across the hyper limit. (OTOH missiles from longer range gives the targets more time to get their missile defenses fully spooled up and ready to intercept)

If you're fighting targets that are out beyond the hyper limit (like you suggested the Lenny Dets should) with GTs then flight time is fairly irrelevant; they won't see the GTs coming. However the fact that your targets have 3-4 times the acceleration of your GTs means that unless you've very lucky with their location and vector your torps are likely in for a long stern chase. (Which is, in fact, the tactic I suggested that the Lenny Dets use.)

kzt wrote:[Pods. With delayed activation. You can all go run over to where it was two hours ago. Don’t worry, I’m sure the MAN hasn’t though about how to handle that...

cthia wrote:Many of you don't realize how devastating the LDs will be. You can't give a computer all the time in the world to plot vectors. With the least number of variables. Any prey that an LD stalks is completely oblivious. Making every launch a success. Completely oblivious means it also isn't maneuvering. Which means it isn't executing evasive maneuvers. The GTs won't even be contested. Point defense won't even fire. That means, if twenty GTs will mission kill an enemy unit, thirty per ship ought to be overkill.

In Summary: One LD can hit an awful lot of targets by itself. It's opponent doesn't even know it's there. Therefore, the target isn't running, nor is it evading. If an LD is allowed to maneuver into its most optimum firing position - ranging on each ship - its missiles can be perfectly synchronised. Merry Christmas Wesley's. Think of it as Cerberrus all over again, but on steroids. These things are going to garner a much deserved reputation of fear and panic.

They will utilize immensely capable computing behemoths to execute a deadly ballet of synchronized attacks.

MaLign tactics utilize the element of surprise.
surprise = 2 X [force multiplier]

You are going against Alphas. Every piece belonging to the enemy is an Honor Harrington. Certainly, if you hyper into the shark infested waters at Darius, know that you are up against the many clones of Honor.

When you're out on exercises, you're in Shark infested waters. It may be better to remain in orbit. LOL

cthia wrote:As far as a launching pod sending up a flare, I don't think it'd matter if a ship is already damn near on top of the launching pod. The missiles are slow, but they're damn near in your lap when they launch. Swamping your defenses. A GT attack softens or destroys a target first.

The initial launch of an LD will leave no ship in the vicinity to localize the planet, let alone the LD.

The GA will need time to adjust. To get back on balance. Even then . . .

Let's just say that this opponent is going to winnow the weaker players. Your training will undoubtedly be challenged against this foe. Havenites may die quicker.

cthia wrote:

wiki wrote:The end around was a World War II submarine tactic used when the position of a submarine (relative to a potential target) did not allow the submarine to mount an immediate attack. The submarine's crew estimated the enemy's bearing, heading, and speed, remaining submerged until out of the enemy's visual range. The submarine then surfaced and proceeded at maximum speed to a position in front of the target, near the target's predicted course but remaining out of view. The submarine would then submerge, approach, and attack.


The location from which a submarine could attack varied mostly according to the relative top speeds of the attacker and its target. Diesel-electric-powered submarines in the Second World War were typically capable of 18-23 knots on the surface under diesel power and up to 9 knots underwater, where they were restricted (if lacking a snorkel) to battery power. Battle fleets in World War II might have a top speed of up to 30 knots, making it difficult for submarines to achieve attack position. A convoy of freighters or tankers typically proceeded at up to 10 knots. Submarines, especially when submerged, were consequently sometimes slower than their prey. Attack opportunities would also be lost if the target detected the submarine and altered course to avoid attack.


Execution

To attack, a sub usually had to get ahead of its target: the end around was one solution to this problem. If a submarine couldn't attack due to unfavorable positioning, its crew determined the target's course and speed, then calculated a potential torpedo firing point. The end around might then proceed as follows.

tlb wrote:There are only the two opponents. That need not be true in war; look at WW2, there were three parties in the Allies and three parties in the Axis, each with their own plans and strategies.