GA-League War

Sigs wrote:In the Battle of Sol, the SLN had ~300 SD's deployed in Sol, 500+ BC's and 500 or more Lighter vessels. Granted a lot of the BC's and lighter combatants might have been gathering for the SLN offensive but even assuming that they were the permanent Fleet protecting the Capital that is still not an overwhelming force, especially considering their are separated in two(Earth and Naval Station Ganymede).

Attack with an Alliance fleet made up of 300 SD's and 80 SD(P)'s backed by 60 CLAC's and a few hundred Destroyers and Cruisers...it will be a massacre, it wont be as one sided as 1921 tech but it will still be a victory.

The Alliance SD(P)'s are snipers, they can fire on defending SD's from far outside their range and keep the out of SLN effective range for as long as they need to, then by the time the SLN SD's get close enough for contact with the Alliance SD's they would have taken a massive beating and would not present too much of a problem.

I don't even think the legacy SDs are needed for much in that fight. (IOW you gave the Alliance too many SD(P)s )

A Medusa-class carries 492 pods (per House Of Steel). With the latest (non-Apollo) Mk23s in the actual war it was found that a salvo of 150 missiles was overkill against an SLN SD. But let's assume that the Mk41 were only 1/4 as effective as those Mk23s[1]; so say we need 600 missiles to kill a SLN SD. Well, each Medusa carries 4920 missiles (ignoring her tubes), which means on its own each Medusa can expect to kill about 8 SLN SDs.

There's a reason that during Buttercup White Haven was able to split off singe squadrons, or even divisions, of SD(P)s to hit systems. Their ability to sustain massive salvos of missiles from beyond the range of defenders is utterly devastating.

Your proposed lineup for this fight only gave the SLN a 3.75:1 ratio of SDs:SD(P)s. So those 80 SD(P)s alone could scour Sol clear of all those listed defenders.

Against 300 SLN SDs you'd just need around 12-16 SD(P)S and 100 SDs to make the fight semi fair (assuming the Alliance SDs forgot to bring towed pods of their own).

[1] That's probably far too conservative. Yes, compared to the Mk23 the older capacitor powered Mk41s have older grav lensing, less ECM power, older programming, etc. But the SLNs SDs wouldn't have Aegis or the other last minute attempts to retrofit improved missile defense that the ones of the actual war had. 600 missiles per SD is more than the larger and far better defended Peep SDs required to kill them during buttercup. So the SD(P)s can probably kill more like 12-16 SDs each.

I am not so familiar with the timeline.

Is the RMN so good in that earlier time?

Remember: The war let the dumb arrogant aristrocats die or made the people in charge smart enough to remove them from the frontline.

So, is the RMN the professinal Navy we know, or are there still a number of Elvis Santinos clones?

The plan and the Leader could be the best, but if you have dumb arrogant people under your command who think they could act of their own even if their rank is lower, because they have connections, then your whole plan can collapse.

Maldorian wrote:I am not so familiar with the timeline.

Is the RMN so good in that earlier time?

Remember: The war let the dumb arrogant aristrocats die or made the people in charge smart enough to remove them from the frontline.

So, is the RMN the professinal Navy we know, or are there still a number of Elvis Santinos clones?

The plan and the Leader could be the best, but if you have dumb arrogant people under your command who think they could act of their own even if their rank is lower, because they have connections, then your whole plan can collapse.

1914 was the end/end phase of the 1st war. All the useless aristocrats are either dead, imprisoned, or moved to jobs they can't do any harm in - but before High Ridge/Janacheck had a chance to rearrange the navy and bring the survivors back.

So at that point, the fleet was professional.

Also, the RMN had not shed their older SDs and Dreadnaughts. there were probably 50-75 DNs, on top of the 90 SDs in Grayson service, and 225 in RMN service, and ~10-12 SDs Sold to Erewhon (plus Erewhon's 24-36 DNs), and whatever SDs where in Talbot's fleet. If the other Haven powers are included, there could also be the 223 SDs and 88 DNs in Andermani Service, and 319 SDs and 47 DNs surviving in Havenite service.

Jonathan_S wrote:I don't even think the legacy SDs are needed for much in that fight. (IOW you gave the Alliance too many SD(P)s )

I get that, I tried to guesstimate how many SD(P)'s the Alliance would have had in 1914 and I do believe I overestimated by at least double.

A Medusa-class carries 492 pods (per House Of Steel). With the latest (non-Apollo) Mk23s in the actual war it was found that a salvo of 150 missiles was overkill against an SLN SD. But let's assume that the Mk41 were only 1/4 as effective as those Mk23s[1]; so say we need 600 missiles to kill a SLN SD. Well, each Medusa carries 4920 missiles (ignoring her tubes), which means on its own each Medusa can expect to kill about 8 SLN SDs.

There's a reason that during Buttercup White Haven was able to split off singe squadrons, or even divisions, of SD(P)s to hit systems. Their ability to sustain massive salvos of missiles from beyond the range of defenders is utterly devastating.

Your proposed lineup for this fight only gave the SLN a 3.75:1 ratio of SDs:SD(P)s. So those 80 SD(P)s alone could scour Sol clear of all those listed defenders.

Against 300 SLN SDs you'd just need around 12-16 SD(P)S and 100 SDs to make the fight semi fair (assuming the Alliance SDs forgot to bring towed pods of their own).

[1] That's probably far too conservative. Yes, compared to the Mk23 the older capacitor powered Mk41s have older grav lensing, less ECM power, older programming, etc. But the SLNs SDs wouldn't have Aegis or the other last minute attempts to retrofit improved missile defense that the ones of the actual war had. 600 missiles per SD is more than the larger and far better defended Peep SDs required to kill them during buttercup. So the SD(P)s can probably kill more like 12-16 SDs each.

I don't even know, because with SD(P)'s in the mix they make the initial war a cakewalk even if they are limited in number. Problem is how to defeat the league, break up the league and keep them from reforming later.

Maldorian wrote:I am not so familiar with the timeline.

Is the RMN so good in that earlier time?

Remember: The war let the dumb arrogant aristrocats die or made the people in charge smart enough to remove them from the frontline.

So, is the RMN the professinal Navy we know, or are there still a number of Elvis Santinos clones?

The plan and the Leader could be the best, but if you have dumb arrogant people under your command who think they could act of their own even if their rank is lower, because they have connections, then your whole plan can collapse.

You had the war that ended in 1914, wether it was the commission of public safety was overthrown or whatever it ended but technological advancement were slowed, so instead everything major remains the same but the technology is delayed by 6-7 years. The RMN would have same people with the obvious difference that they would be using the older tech instead of using partial squadrons of DD's to swat away squadrons of BC's and divisions of CA's to fight off squadrons of BC's.

I'm messing up the scenario here, because for there to be even a challenge in this fight we might have to go further back, before the introduction of SD(P)'s and LAC's and CLACs because even 50 SD(P)'s could go from system to system, wreck the SLN and leave the rest of the Alliance wallers for defence.

Sigs wrote:I'm messing up the scenario here, because for there to be even a challenge in this fight we might have to go further back, before the introduction of SD(P)'s and LAC's and CLACs because even 50 SD(P)'s could go from system to system, wreck the SLN and leave the rest of the Alliance wallers for defence.

Fester made a good lineup about 5 years ago, giving the date points where the SLN could trump Manticore and what is would roughly take to do it. It's somewhere on the forum here.

Theemile wrote:

Sigs wrote:I'm messing up the scenario here, because for there to be even a challenge in this fight we might have to go further back, before the introduction of SD(P)'s and LAC's and CLACs because even 50 SD(P)'s could go from system to system, wreck the SLN and leave the rest of the Alliance wallers for defence.

Fester made a good lineup about 5 years ago, giving the date points where the SLN could trump Manticore and what is would roughly take to do it. It's somewhere on the forum here.

It's not anymore, got bumped off. That thread was called "an apologia for Battle Fleet" and showed how Battle Fleet's doctrine was mostly valid. It went something like this:

1872 - Crandall's TF would defeat the RMN.

1889 - 11th Fleet would defeat the RMN.

1905 - 11th Fleet + Tasmania wave would be required - simultaneously - to overcome RMN's 300 wallers + SDM pods.

Somewhere between 1905 and 1914 is when SLN doctrine, successful for nearly 500 years, finally failed without being noticed. That calculation is impossible to narrow down further because of the Manticore-Haven war effects and because of Manticore's forts(many of which started shutting down in 1911).

Sigs wrote:It is occupying their naval bases and shipyards. It wont be that many as in the books I believe they mentioned the League has only about half a dozen yards and is building a handful of SD's every year for the reserve and to replace their oldest active ships. Occupy their shipyards, occupy their naval bases after destroying their fleet.

Let's make a quick check on math on building a few SDs a year doesn't add to 10000 SDs. Manticore's first SD (HMS Manticore) is from 1750. Let's say they were 30 years late and the SLN had their first in 1720. That means in the past 200 years, they built 50 SDs per year. We know that the RMN is now the fastest ever at building SDs, clocking 22 months from laying the keel to commissioning. That means the SLN must have an average of at least 100 SDs being built at any point in time, over the last 200 years. Since they take 4 years to build an SD instead of Manticore's 2, that's an average of 200 SDs in construction at any time. If they kept this average until today, they're commissioning 50 SDs every year.

It's possible that they are building far fewer now than they were, say, 50 years ago. If they cut building capacity to one fourth, that's still 50 SDs in construction any point in time and commissioning 12 or 13 every years.

I guess that counts as "a handful".

Problem with that is that the SLN is technologically inferior at the start but you never know if they come up with some game changer weapon or ship design and while the GA is taking the slow and steady approach of convincing and winning hearts and minds the SLN is building up a knockout blow. Haven kept staying within shouting distance of RMN technology and they had a hell of a lot less resources than the League.

No doubt. The war needs to be long enough to show that the SLN is incompetent, to draw out the worst of the Mandarins, for them to try and squeeze the money out of the Verge, even attempt that Constitutional Amendment to tax directly, but short enough to prevent the SLN R&D to catch up and put it into production. Remember that in this scenario, there's no Apollo, so the bar isn't that high. The RHN did effectively catch up with an even worse educational base in 3 years. The difference is that they did so without an external threat and with a shipyard (Bolthole) out of reach and even knowledge of any of the combatants.

And we did see how quickly Cataphracts were put together. I'd say that the Cataphracts-A would come about within 1 year of the start of this war, maybe a bit longer if the MAlign isn't feeding TIY prepared research from Buttercup. Cataphracts-C and pods would be within 2 years, which is dangerous to the GA forces. So this war needs to wrap up before the 2 year mark.

Sigs wrote:You had the war that ended in 1914, wether it was the commission of public safety was overthrown or whatever it ended but technological advancement were slowed, so instead everything major remains the same but the technology is delayed by 6-7 years. The RMN would have same people with the obvious difference that they would be using the older tech instead of using partial squadrons of DD's to swat away squadrons of BC's and divisions of CA's to fight off squadrons of BC's.

Indeed. When I first read the OP, I thought the premise was "this is 1920, but technology is from 1914", but throughout the discussion we're placing the entire scenario in 1914-1915. For that to be possible and for Haven to be an ally of Manticore, the previous war must have concluded satisfactorily somehow. What could trigger that?

If Buttercup had ended the war, the PRN would have been annihilated and would not have had the time to participate. That's not the scenario.

Maybe McQueen did succeed in overthrowing the Committee of Public Safety. That would make her an even more effective alias for Napoleon Bonaparte, since she'd be the absolute ruler of the polity. In fact, she'd have no interest in restoring the Péricard Constitution, so this wouldn't be the Republic of Haven. In Revolutionary France, the CPS was overthrown on 9 Thermidor Year II, with the following period known as the Directory, with Napoleon only coming into the scene until much later, so I think McQueen's coup attempt is actually modelled on Coup of 18 Brumaire, after which Napoleon ruled as First Consul.

So long as she rewarded Theisman, Giscard, Tourville and let Foraker into R&D, without unduly interfering, this could be a realistic scenario.

The only question is if she would have successfully ended the war with Manticore. The MA was already testing the outputs of Project Gram in 1913, so they may not agree to peace or even armistice with Haven because they know they can win. But if war with the League is brewing, I'm sure they'd take this offer, especially if McQueen also offered alliance against the League.