GA-League War

IINM, the RMN also doesn't have its hellacious ECM -- a force multiplier -- which is just as much a downfall to the SLN as Apollo?

It comes down to an attrition game. About what it was between the RHN and the RMN. Essentially, you are saying that Honor, or someone else, could have taken Sol then.

There was also no offbore firing? In this scenario, I think the SLN had a better hand, IF they played it correctly.

So, are the ECMs in play, and no force multiplier?

The RMN had Dazzlers and Dragon’s Teeth during Buttercup. It wasn’t quite as effective as those later used by fusion powered missiles, but still leaps and bounds better than anything the SLN had.

LACs have offbore firing, but none of the then-deployed starship classes had it. It’d take post-1914 designs like the Wolfhound and Saganami-B to incorporate it.

basically the GA still has the upper hand. no DDMs for lighter combatants is an issue and as others have said the below the wall fights are lot more open to question.

though while they they made efforts to get improved ECM out to the light units most of the DD and CLs we see (aside from what Oversteen faced @ Tiberain have we EVER seen Solly CAs?) are described as less then cutting edge.

the manties had a new DD introduced in 1899, and it was good enough to not be replaced before nearly 20 years went by. 20 years of mostly hard fighting. similar for CL, Valiant class was the predecessor to the current Avalon and joined the Fleet in 1902 and to quote House of steel "Valiants remain effective units even by today's radically changed standards". so very likely to outclass any solly CL in 1 to 1 combat.

The Sag A was an excellent design only new tech necessitating its short life, even so it and Star Knights are probably capable of handing Solly CAs 1 to 1. a Sag B managed 4-1 odds, so 2-1 might not be impossible.

BCs are where it gets a bit tricky. The Nevada is newer then the Reliant and as most Solly BC were FF they actually had some clue about how to use them. still I expect a Reliant could give 2 Nevadas a really bad time. The Nevedas might win but I doubt they'd be in any shape to continue the mission.

basically the manties might not be able to take out BC with DD lacking DDMs but the lighter ships would still be a lot more dangerous then the SLN would think possible.

As a point of fact, Apollo was hardly used in the war as we saw it. It was employed in Spindle to knock off 23 out of 70 SDs with mere heavy cruisers and in Beowulf. Honor may have used some in the Second Battle of Manticore, but Filareta was so close (under 15 million km) that Apollo wasn't necessary. With the industries intact, Honor would have had no problem replacing quantity for quality of the missiles to halt 500 SDs.

In this scenario, I think Manticore would have complained pro-forma to demand Eleventh Fleet's recall, but half-heartedly. Better Filareta arrive with a quarter of the Battle Fleet to be neutralised where the GA can bring its own power to bear. And with no MAlign, Filareta might have succeeded at surrendering. Even if not, the SLN SDs might be death traps, but they could be used in rear area security, freeing up the more modern units for where they're really necessary.

The other aspect I want to bring up is Lacoön. Lacoön One was a recall of Manticoran merchant shipping and that would remain in this war. It serves a the same two-fold objective: reduce Solarian interstellar economic output, which is taxed, and move the merchant shipping to support the war closer at home.

Lacoöon Two would also be necessary, though as the parameters mean that light forces have a higher difficulty against SLN units of similar size (not to mention an SD squadron), it would be focused on the main arteries. That would still mean crippling the Solarian economy and denying fast movement to their military forces. It's needed because if the GA doesn't do it, the SLN will. And losing the inside lines could mean trouble.

Thanks Duckk, and all of you factoters.

Consider that Beowulf may not be willing to contemplate seceding at that time, likewise the RMN may not feel it is up to the task of wrestling with a gorilla at that point. The SLN may have access to Beowulf's junction.

In the end, the cowards would use the same strategy. Case Buccanner and Parthian Shot. The only recourse is to burn the Harrington Plan. Was the RMN up to invading Sol then?

Again, the SL is too arrogant to wage a protracted war.

P.S. I didn't think the RMN had anywhere near the listed number of CLACs. Was the bulk Havenite?

Duckk wrote:The RMN had Dazzlers and Dragon’s Teeth during Buttercup. It wasn’t quite as effective as those later used by fusion powered missiles, but still leaps and bounds better than anything the SLN had.

LACs have offbore firing, but none of the then-deployed starship classes had it. It’d take post-1914 designs like the Wolfhound and Saganami-B to incorporate it.

CLACs and SD(p)s had offbore in 1914. Minotaur/Hydra designs only had hammerhead tubes.

Dauntless wrote:basically the GA still has the upper hand. no DDMs for lighter combatants is an issue and as others have said the below the wall fights are lot more open to question.

though while they they made efforts to get improved ECM out to the light units most of the DD and CLs we see (aside from what Oversteen faced @ Tiberain have we EVER seen Solly CAs?) are described as less then cutting edge.

the manties had a new DD introduced in 1899, and it was good enough to not be replaced before nearly 20 years went by. 20 years of mostly hard fighting. similar for CL, Valiant class was the predecessor to the current Avalon and joined the Fleet in 1902 and to quote House of steel "Valiants remain effective units even by today's radically changed standards". so very likely to outclass any solly CL in 1 to 1 combat.

The Sag A was an excellent design only new tech necessitating its short life, even so it and Star Knights are probably capable of handing Solly CAs 1 to 1. a Sag B managed 4-1 odds, so 2-1 might not be impossible.

BCs are where it gets a bit tricky. The Nevada is newer then the Reliant and as most Solly BC were FF they actually had some clue about how to use them. still I expect a Reliant could give 2 Nevadas a really bad time. The Nevedas might win but I doubt they'd be in any shape to continue the mission.

basically the manties might not be able to take out BC with DD lacking DDMs but the lighter ships would still be a lot more dangerous then the SLN would think possible.

Reliants had the same missile launchers as the Star Knights/Sag -As, which had a cycle time of 12 seconds iirc. Old Solly BCs haad a cycle time of 45 seconds - newer ones had a 30 second cycle time. Against an older ship, a Reliant could field almost 4 salvos for every one returned at it - against a newer ship like a Nevada, 5 salvos for every 2 shot back.

I just think this scenario deals the SL a better hand than they ended up with.

If there was no seceding rats to turn coat and the SLN maintained OPSEC, Filareta could have done some serious damage. If the Manties still knows he's coming and have time to set a trap, maybe.

But a completely surprised MBS would have been in trouble. They wouldn't have been set to throw massive salvos.

cthia wrote:Without Apollo the GA is dead. The SL is an arrogant gorilla. But still a gorilla. What are you going to do when the amped up gorilla makes a beeline for your Home System, and you have no Apollo? And no significant accel advantage.

The SL is not going to fight a protracted war. Do you blame them?

100 SD(P)'s, backed up with ammo ships those SD(P)'s are each worth at least 5 SD's, what is the SLN going to do? Strip the core of any defences just to attack Manticore or Haven? The advantage of having 3 WH leading into League space, one of them being damn near Sol itself is that the SLN needs to protect the core and wont have enough ships to form a fleet to attack the GA. If the Reserve was maintained to a modern standard, it has crews, weapons and a means to mobilize them in respectable time and it had support it would be a different question because then it would be 10,000 SD's vs 1,300 SD's and 100 SD(P)'s, but it's not an actual reserve, and they cant mobilize more then a few hundred of the newest ships and even those ships will require a hell of a lot of time and effort to get them ready.

The GA fleet is about equal to the SLN in firepower, if not actually stronger. Throw in the fact that most Alliance system have some fixed defences and the important industrial and strategic locations most definitely have heavy fixed defences, fixed defences that the SLN has NEVER faced it would be a massacre. Imagine the SLN waltzing into the Manticore Home system without the benefit of getting its ass handed in every engagement before hand, without the benefit of some intelligence that they have more capable missiles etc... even if they succeed they will take prohibitive losses while eliminating only a small portion of the GA's industry all the while exposing their core systems, bases, shipyards and general support. They would now have a fleet that is months away from home without enough weapons to fight another battle and with no means to get seriously damaged ships out of the system, they get home and their bases and shipyards are destroyed or captured, they have no munitions and no repair facilities...what then?


The Advantage the GA has is that they can use their offensive fleets to hit the League repeatedly, rearm, repair and prepare defences all the while the SLN is taking the long way around. With the number of leaks in the SLN and the League government the GA will know of potential attacks before they are halfway to their destinations, and if they didn't hear from the League they will sure notice the core systems being left defenceless.

cthia wrote:I just think this scenario deals the SL a better hand than they ended up with.

If there was no seceding rats to turn coat and the SLN maintained OPSEC, Filareta could have done some serious damage. If the Manties still knows he's coming and have time to set a trap, maybe.

But a completely surprised MBS would have been in trouble. They wouldn't have been set to throw massive salvos.

The Home system would still have millions of Pods and Home fleet of a few dozen SD's. The Junction would still have the forts and whatever is working up in/around Manticore, Trevor's Star and Basilisk would come to help. They may ultimately win and conquer Manticore, they will take a hell of a beating on the way in AND on the way out, the difference is that Manticore might get it's people of the industrial platforms and they wont have to start the rebuild from scratch. Think how many missile pods are used to defend Manticore, they can saturate the defences of an unprepared SLN fleet and even if they ultimately lose the SLN fleet would be in no fighting shape afterwards.