?

Basically, it’s a larger and higher tech version of Masada.

kzt wrote:Assuming you know exactly where it is, to hiy it directly you have to be close enough to the spider that it can't move out of the predicted area. Your detection is almost certianly going to be based on light speed.

So we'll assume it's 1.5 km on a side. It maneuvers at 150g. So your d=1/2AT^2 1500m=1/2*1500T^2

So basically, if you are within 450,000 km you can hit it. reliably. How hard will it be for the dozens of huge grasers on the spider to shoot you are 450,000km? How hard will it be to reach 450,000 km of the spider?

I suspect it will be very hard.

Galactic Sapper wrote:We also have to assume bringing up its sidewall bubble is going to be detectable. And the whole scenario presuposes the spider is well within 450k km of the planet, so range is not an issue. Besides, outside of 450k km energy weapons are going to have a hard time penetrating sidewalls going either way.

I don't recall the scenario proposing 450k km range of the planet until, or not unless, everything in orbit has been bynged. Stealthed pods the LD has inserted could be that close though. So, who is left to localize the LD?

There is one thing that bothers me about detecting the LDs that I think most people are missing. Like ThinksMarkedly who is banking on an LD's inability to sniff Manty butt from up close.

We all appear to be in agreement the LDs are some stealthy buggers beyond a light second. But they can't get but so close to the planet. I disagree with that, even if someone is looking. Which is the problem. I don't think anyone WILL be looking.

Detection hardware has to be directed at certain areas. They are limited in range and scope. No one who is controlling hardware that is scanning the heavens is going to bother scanning so close to the planet. The warships sitting there all fat and happy has that covered. So why waste time scanning something that should be empty when there is so much vastness to worry about.

Scanning tech really has to be directed. Remember Abigail directing someone on the bridge "Search this volume of space right... here."

The LDs are going to sneak right up Manty butt. Unseen. Unsmelled. Undetected.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well if the Grand Fleet shows up and the MAlign defensive forces blow them away I'm not sure how they're supposed to come back and bombard the planet. They just got utterly crushed in a totally lopsided battle.

Anything that can fire an MDM can destroy a planet. One cruiser, hyper in and empty their magazines. Unless the MAlign has a fleet between the ship and Darius it's doomed. Note that defenses around Darius are irrelevant--it doesn't matter if point defense nails every missile, the planet still dies--the plasma clouds left by the destruction of a missile in the point defense zone still have incredible energy. The only way the planet lives is if they are picked off far away from the planet so the plasma disperses enough.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Well if the Grand Fleet shows up and the MAlign defensive forces blow them away I'm not sure how they're supposed to come back and bombard the planet. They just got utterly crushed in a totally lopsided battle.

Anything that can fire an MDM can destroy a planet. One cruiser, hyper in and empty their magazines. Unless the MAlign has a fleet between the ship and Darius it's doomed. Note that defenses around Darius are irrelevant--it doesn't matter if point defense nails every missile, the planet still dies--the plasma clouds left by the destruction of a missile in the point defense zone still have incredible energy. The only way the planet lives is if they are picked off far away from the planet so the plasma disperses enough.

That brings me to another common assumption that could bite butt... but hard. Traditionally, fighting outside the hyper limit has been rare. The attacker can just hyper out, even though there's rarely anything there worth fighting for.

Regardless, the MaLign has tech that turns much of traditional tactics and strategy on its ear.

With invisible forts on steroids, these can be placed outside the hyper limit as well. Enemies hyper in right on top of a fort. And don't even know it.

Question. It takes time to bring a wedge up and get the ship moving. Has textev claimed any similar disabilities of an LD? Can she just start her engines and be about it?

Also, I said a while ago, that RFC could write into storyline natural geographic anomalies within the Darius system. Geographic quirks that the GA hasn't seen. Maybe something naturally occurring and native to the system that screws with sensors, GA tech, etc., etc.

Point being, you can't go off all half-cocked and invade someone else's home. Especially since you've never been there. The MA may make scouting impossible. These people had nothing but time to build their system, with no wars to be a resource drain.

cthia wrote:With invisible forts on steroids, these can be placed outside the hyper limit as well. Enemies hyper in right on top of a fort. And don't even know it.

The chances of that happening are, literally, astronomically small. Even Honor hypering in to Sol and being "on top" of a cruiser squadron was still tens of millions of km from it, and it was a fluke chance.

Even if you just want to cover the ecliptic because your enemy would hyper in there, a 22-light minute hyper limit has a 138 light-minute perimeter. If you want to catch an unwary enemy who hypered in before they can cycle their hypergenerators back and hyper out, the forts need to be within 2 minutes' missile flight time, which for a 130,000 G Cataphract is about half a light-minute. So to cover the hole perimeter, you need 140 forts.

And that's only if the enemy hypers on the hyper limit. If they come out of it 6 million km out, there's a 50-50 chance it's got sufficient time to hyper back out from the closest fort's missiles. If they hyper in 9 million km out (half a light minute), then they are sure to hyper out if needed. And if they don't hyper in on the ecliptic, they'll be out of range too.

To catch any enemy, you need a 3D deployment, not a linear one on the perimeter of the hyperlimit on the ecliptic. Just to cover the surface of the sphere of the hyperlimit we're talking about 10000 forts. A 3D deployment is impractical in the Honorverse. That's a Type 2 Civilisation engineering feat.

Not even just C&C forts controlling system defence pods with FTL transceivers. That would still need some 1000 forts and 100,000 pod clusters, each with sufficient missiles to overwhelm an SD(P) squadron force.

Question. It takes time to bring a wedge up and get the ship moving. Has textev claimed any similar disabilities of an LD? Can she just start her engines and be about it?

You're thinking of bringing them up from cold, which is something we know to take at least 15 minutes. Bringing the wedge up after a hyper translation isn't too difficult, since those nodes are already hot and running. I assume you meant ships parked in orbit?

We know the Sharks did bring their engines up, but not how long. They also had a lot of time to do so, however long it took. The big drawback is that bringing the spider up produces a detectable power spike.

Also, I said a whole ago, that RFC could write into storyline natural geographic allies within the Darius system. Geographic quirks that the GA haven't seen. Maybe something naturally in the system that screws with sensors, GA tech, etc., Etc.

Point being, you can't go off all half-cocked and invade someone else's home. Especially since you've never been there.

Galactographic allies (neighbouring systems) are very unlikely. The only way for Darius to remain unknown is that the entire population is kept under surveillance and cannot leave the planet. If there are any nearby systems that can serve the MAlign cause, they are MAlign planets themselves too, with tightly controlled spacefaring.

Which actually brings me to a question: the more hyper-capable ships you have in space, the bigger the chance of one being hijacked by a rogue person and spilling the beans to the opponent. So how does the MAlign balance making sure that it won't happen in Darius, at the same time as they have sufficient defences to protect the system and an offensive force to go after its enemies?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Which actually brings me to a question: the more hyper-capable ships you have in space, the bigger the chance of one being hijacked by a rogue person and spilling the beans to the opponent. So how does the MAlign balance making sure that it won't happen in Darius, at the same time as they have sufficient defences to protect the system and an offensive force to go after its enemies?

Easy. Other than the Navy, the Mesa born freighter crews, the Core leadership and the Houdini transplants, every one on the planet has been fed a consistant lie and has never seen or been told differently. No one has been off planet. No one has been able to read a foreign news feed. No one has spoken to a foreign spacer in a seedy bar. Everyone has been told the same story about the history of the outside universe: It is them - all of them - against us. The are godless heathens. If caught, they are all cannibals and will eat you with Cianti and Fava beans, etc, etc...

All the people from the outside, the former Mesans - they are living in their own little bubble - both on Darius and in their Minds. They are touting the company line (for the most part) - If they weren't true believers, well, they wouldn't have made their Houdini ride, now would they?

So no one of the billion people on Darius has seen anything to contradict the truth they know. So why would they question it - any of it?

I've heard argument against this over the years - how could you create such a society? It's easy, we have versions of it now. How many times do you go to a restaurant and look at the menu, then throw it away and ask for something not in print? Unless you know better, about a secret dish, you probably don't. And if you do, it's probably something simple - hold this, or can I have this side instead of the one intended for my entree? No, we all tend to follow the menu in front of us for the most part, and don't question why the Greek restaurant doesn't serve Bangers and Mash.

And if you don't know about the secret dish - why would you even think to ask for it?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:With invisible forts on steroids, these can be placed outside the hyper limit as well. Enemies hyper in right on top of a fort. And don't even know it.

The chances of that happening are, literally, astronomically small. Even Honor hypering in to Sol and being "on top" of a cruiser squadron was still tens of millions of km from it, and it was a fluke chance.

Even if you just want to cover the ecliptic because your enemy would hyper in there, a 22-light minute hyper limit has a 138 light-minute perimeter. If you want to catch an unwary enemy who hypered in before they can cycle their hypergenerators back and hyper out, the forts need to be within 2 minutes' missile flight time, which for a 130,000 G Cataphract is about half a light-minute. So to cover the hole perimeter, you need 140 forts.

And that's only if the enemy hypers on the hyper limit. If they come out of it 6 million km out, there's a 50-50 chance it's got sufficient time to hyper back out from the closest fort's missiles. If they hyper in 9 million km out (half a light minute), then they are sure to hyper out if needed. And if they don't hyper in on the ecliptic, they'll be out of range too.

To catch any enemy, you need a 3D deployment, not a linear one on the perimeter of the hyperlimit on the ecliptic. Just to cover the surface of the sphere of the hyperlimit we're talking about 10000 forts. A 3D deployment is impractical in the Honorverse. That's a Type 2 Civilisation engineering feat.

Not even just C&C forts controlling system defence pods with FTL transceivers. That would still need some 1000 forts and 100,000 pod clusters, each with sufficient missiles to overwhelm an SD(P) squadron force.

Question. It takes time to bring a wedge up and get the ship moving. Has textev claimed any similar disabilities of an LD? Can she just start her engines and be about it?

You're thinking of bringing them up from cold, which is something we know to take at least 15 minutes. Bringing the wedge up after a hyper translation isn't too difficult, since those nodes are already hot and running. I assume you meant ships parked in orbit?

We know the Sharks did bring their engines up, but not how long. They also had a lot of time to do so, however long it took. The big drawback is that bringing the spider up produces a detectable power spike.

Also, I said a whole ago, that RFC could write into storyline natural geographic allies within the Darius system. Geographic quirks that the GA haven't seen. Maybe something naturally in the system that screws with sensors, GA tech, etc., Etc.

Point being, you can't go off all half-cocked and invade someone else's home. Especially since you've never been there.

Galactographic allies (neighbouring systems) are very unlikely. The only way for Darius to remain unknown is that the entire population is kept under surveillance and cannot leave the planet. If there are any nearby systems that can serve the MAlign cause, they are MAlign planets themselves too, with tightly controlled spacefaring.

Which actually brings me to a question: the more hyper-capable ships you have in space, the bigger the chance of one being hijacked by a rogue person and spilling the beans to the opponent. So how does the MAlign balance making sure that it won't happen in Darius, at the same time as they have sufficient defences to protect the system and an offensive force to go after its enemies?

Honor hypering into the Sol system on top of an enemy combatant is exactly what was going on in my head. Even if it is only somewhat close, the forts could still launch stealthed GTs, with a ballistic component. If GA ships are simply going to sit there with the intention of lobbing missiles at the planet. It'd certainly work for the GA, if they had stealthed forts and Apollo.

Indeed, I was asking about cold starts. The spikes are what I'm worried about. An LD from a cold start, if gravitic signature is detected, needs to get under way pronto.

Galactogtaphic "allies" should have been "anomalies." I thought I caught it in time before someone got to it. Oops. Blame it on my uppity spell checker.

Theemile wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Which actually brings me to a question: the more hyper-capable ships you have in space, the bigger the chance of one being hijacked by a rogue person and spilling the beans to the opponent. So how does the MAlign balance making sure that it won't happen in Darius, at the same time as they have sufficient defences to protect the system and an offensive force to go after its enemies?

Easy. Other than the Navy, the Mesa born freighter crews, the Core leadership and the Houdini transplants, every one on the planet has been fed a consistant lie and has never seen or been told differently. No one has been off planet. No one has been able to read a foreign news feed. No one has spoken to a foreign spacer in a seedy bar. Everyone has been told the same story about the history of the outside universe: It is them - all of them - against us. The are godless heathens. If caught, they are all cannibals and will eat you with Cianti and Fava beans, etc, etc...

All the people from the outside, the former Mesans - they are living in their own little bubble - both on Darius and in their Minds. They are touting the company line (for the most part) - If they weren't true believers, well, they wouldn't have made their Houdini ride, now would they?

So no one of the billion people on Darius has seen anything to contradict the truth they know. So why would they question it - any of it?

I've heard argument against this over the years - how could you create such a society? It's easy, we have versions of it now. How many times do you go to a restaurant and look at the menu, then throw it away and ask for something not in print? Unless you know better, about a secret dish, you probably don't. And if you do, it's probably something simple - hold this, or can I have this side instead of the one intended for my entree? No, we all tend to follow the menu in front of us for the most part, and don't question why the Greek restaurant doesn't serve Bangers and Mash.

And if you don't know about the secret dish - why would you even think to ask for it?

As in the Iron Curtain, Theemile. E.g., North Korea.

But I think ThinksMarkedly is asking about the Alignment's ships that DO have to exit the Iron Curtain for supplies. Yatta yatta yatta. And the answer is, nanite conditioning in conjunction with the indoctrination you speak of.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:Easy. Other than the Navy, the Mesa born freighter crews, the Core leadership and the Houdini transplants, every one on the planet has been fed a consistant lie and has never seen or been told differently. No one has been off planet. No one has been able to read a foreign news feed. No one has spoken to a foreign spacer in a seedy bar. Everyone has been told the same story about the history of the outside universe: It is them - all of them - against us. The are godless heathens. If caught, they are all cannibals and will eat you with Cianti and Fava beans, etc, etc...

All the people from the outside, the former Mesans - they are living in their own little bubble - both on Darius and in their Minds. They are touting the company line (for the most part) - If they weren't true believers, well, they wouldn't have made their Houdini ride, now would they?

So no one of the billion people on Darius has seen anything to contradict the truth they know. So why would they question it - any of it?

I've heard argument against this over the years - how could you create such a society? It's easy, we have versions of it now. How many times do you go to a restaurant and look at the menu, then throw it away and ask for something not in print? Unless you know better, about a secret dish, you probably don't. And if you do, it's probably something simple - hold this, or can I have this side instead of the one intended for my entree? No, we all tend to follow the menu in front of us for the most part, and don't question why the Greek restaurant doesn't serve Bangers and Mash.

And if you don't know about the secret dish - why would you even think to ask for it?

As in the Iron Curtain, Theemile. E.g., North Korea.

But I think ThinksMarkedly is asking about the Alignment's ships that DO have to exit the Iron Curtain for supplies. Yatta yatta yatta. And the answer is, nanite conditioning in conjunction with the indoctrination you speak of.

As we saw, the routing to Darius was for Houdini was convoluted, with multiple ship transfers and cut outs.

Chances are there are a limited # of ships which go directly to Darius, and they all are picked members of the Onion, in on the secret. Everything is transferred onto those ships - and chances are, at this point, Darius's economy is probably completely independent and self-sufficient.Now that Houdini is over, the only remaining reasons to contact the outside world is to control the Onion's spies and agents, coordinate with the RF and to wage war against the outside world.

For everything but war, you could have mail couriers rendezvous with a deep space platform that tight beams it's take to a 2nd, distant platform, that a Darius based courier meets to query daily. So - no direct contact with the outside world.

cthia wrote:NANITE TO QUEEN PALACE(1). CHECK.

MATE IN THREE


1. MISSION KILL EVERYTHING COMING OUT OF JUNCTION. The MA has been sitting and watching. Space around the junction is vast. Huge. All ships take planned routes. The MA have isolated ambush points. All of those surplus LDs had missions too. Stalk infrastructure. Mining. Space Stations. Etc. They were sitting there the whole time.

2. SEIZE THE QUEEN via Nanite Compulsion of key players. Or, prevent her from being Castled. Awaiting a bombardment on her location.

If the MALign's hand is forced, the Queen will die. Perhaps the next in line of succession is thinking with a clearer head.

"Who's in Charge?" is the MaLign's version of "Who's on First?"

3. SCORCHED EARTH After his virtuoso of moves on the chess board. Detweiler's speech rings true. "I trust you won't force me to sadly play my hole card." Although no one detected one bit of sadness, at all. After the MaLign are thru, the MBS will be thrust back to a living, below that of the denizens of the planet Refuge.


CHECKMATE


Manties, pour your own poison.



DOSES OF K U D O S BRIGADE XO!

I do believe you earned one of these before.

.

Next in succession not on Manticore- at the moment at the end of UH is Mike, sitting over Mesa with her fleet. The alignment would be tracking her as best possible along with young Justin and his wife. Slip a Shark into the Mesa System and push a GT at Mike's flagship....that works. If not now, then keep tracking and before you move to hit Manticore the planet, try and kill Mike at the same time or very close time. She would proably be the most dangerous of the line of sucession primarly because she is a competent Flag level commander and funtions well under pressure.