GA-League War

My point was that the SLN units wouldn’t outrange Alliance units.

Jonathan_S wrote:
Still, even with the info that the SLN missiles are inferior I think the RMN/GSN would need to be more careful with their light units than they were in the actual later war with the League.

It wouldn't be just the lighter units, it would be the SD's as well. A 1914 RMN/RHN SD might be better than the SLN counterpart but it wont be anywhere as overwhelming as the SD vs SD(P) battles in 1921. Yeah it might be that 1 RMN/GSN SD is worth 1.5 SLN SD's and 1 RHN SD is worth 1.3 SLN SD's. The SD(P)'s would definitely be significantly better than the SLN's SD's but it would depend on how they are utilized(Offensive/defensive/QRF)


Second Battle of Manticore would have looked different if there were 440 GA SD's vs 427 SLN SD's. It would definitely still be an overwhelming GA victory considering that the Manticore Home System has heavy fixed defences, ship quality and experience of the crews and leadership but the GA would have probably received significant losses as well. The volume of fire in 1914 was significantly lighter than volume of fire in 1921 especially when you consider that in 1921 most of the capital ships that were used in the RMN and RHN were SD(P)'s backed up by LAC's like the Katana which were probably equal to a War Harvest DD in anti-missile defence if not better and Cimeterre class LACs which although not in the same league as Katana's were usually deployed in larger numbers.

In 1914 most first launch was heavy and the rest were lighters because it was all internal, in 1921 all launches could be equally heavy.

Duckk wrote:My point was that the SLN units wouldn’t outrange Alliance units.

They might not outrange them but they would be fighting from a hell of a lot close using 1914 tech as benchmark than they would be using 1921. Hell even 1905 might see the RMN and RHN outrange the SLN. But the difference is that one side has a range of 9 million km in 1914 vs 160 million km in 1921 while the other side has 7 million km in 1914 vs effective range of 12-15 million km in 1921.

You definitely would not see the pathetic battles of RMN DD terrorizing SLN BCs. However; the GA SDs and SD(P)s would be far more available to confront the SL.

The GA can win an offensive war but it's light forces will be destroyed if it stays on the defensive. Eighth Fleet will have to pay a courtesy call to SOL system ASAP.

Theemile wrote:For example: You can intercept an contact nuke from the begin of your defense perimeter till it hits your hull. A Laser-Warhead detonate far away of the hull, means, you have only the distance between it enters your defense range and the distance it explodes. That reduce the time you have to destroy incomming missles. Navies that noticed the change in warfare because of the Laserwarhead increase their missle defense to compensate it.

There's some truth to that. And we know their CM tubes are slower cycling; so against SDMs were you can expect to get follow-up shots they'll get less of them then a RMN/GSN ship of the era would.
And IIRC their PDLCs may have had fewer emitters than the corresponding RMN/GSN design. But the few ships we have data on the anti-missile defenses weren't pathetically weak compared to the contemporary allied designs. They were just older.

The broadside defenses of a Reliant class battlecruiser fall right between the smaller Indefatigable and larger Nevada classes.
850,000 tons Indefatigable-class BC - 8 CM, 16 PDLC
877,500 tons Reliant-class BC - 10 CM, 10 PDLC
911,250 tons Nevada-class BC - 12 CM, 16 PDLC
Though admittedly the GSN's Courvosier-class was 8 years newer and better defended.
903,750 tons Courvosier-class - 16 CM, 16 PDLC

Of course those were FF designs, and therefore more modern than BF - compare the pre-Aegis Scientist to the 1896 Majestic DN (same year as the Reliant)
6,800,000 ton Scientist-class SD - 16 CM, 32 PDLC
6,750,500 ton Majestic-class DN - 24 CM, 25 PDLC

So you can see the Scientist-classes focus on PDLCs. Those are more effective against the sidewall burning or sidewall penetrating warheads than they are against laserheads. That closer to the defensive suite of a Royal Winton or Gladiator class DN from the 1840s or 1860s (which obviously also wouldn't have been designed to face a serious laserhead thread).

Sigs wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
Still, even with the info that the SLN missiles are inferior I think the RMN/GSN would need to be more careful with their light units than they were in the actual later war with the League.

It wouldn't be just the lighter units, it would be the SD's as well. A 1914 RMN/RHN SD might be better than the SLN counterpart but it wont be anywhere as overwhelming as the SD vs SD(P) battles in 1921. Yeah it might be that 1 RMN/GSN SD is worth 1.5 SLN SD's and 1 RHN SD is worth 1.3 SLN SD's. The SD(P)'s would definitely be significantly better than the SLN's SD's but it would depend on how they are utilized(Offensive/defensive/QRF)

True. The "classic" SDs would also have to be careful. The difference is they're signficantly larger than their SLN counterparts with far tougher anti-missile defenses. Plus they have a lot more tractors for towing pods for the first salvo. And they could be towing MDM pods - letting them smash several SLN SDs before anybody enters range of their onboard missiles. (And even better the SLN could probably quickly come up with pods of their own, after all Haven did. But until they crack MDMs or something like a Cataphract it usually won't matter because with MDM pods the GA ships can take out the SLN pods from beyond the range of return fire)

Still your 1.3 - 1.5 times better is probably about right - but then the losses inflicted by towed pods would be in addition to that. So the old wallers still need to be careful, and will probably take some lumps. But I'd say they've got more of an edge over their SLN counterparts than the light units do.

Strategic Goals:
Short Term- The Short term goal is to keep the Territorial Integrity of the Alliance. To accomplish this goal I would need proper defensive deployment as well as an aggressive offensive force(s) to force the SLN to the defensive and keep their Super Dreadnaughts in their territory and away from potential offensive on Alliance territory.

Mid-Term- The mid term goal is to break up the League into smaller, less threatening, industrially weaker nation and support any system/group of systems that wish to leave the League and form independent nations by offering economic, industrial and military assistance as well as defensive agreements.
Equally important would be the defeat of Frontier Fleet and finding potential future allies within the systems of the verge/protectorates where the Grand Alliance will deploy defensive assets and assist those nations deemed to be most promising with economic and industrial aid as well as advisors in order to assist with the government stability, legal and police advisors to facilitate democratic governments and educations, technical and engineering advisors to assist with the modernization and expansion of the systems economy and industry.

Military goals would be to start recruiting from the systems that receive aid from the GA in order to train manpower for a regional naval force trained by, organized by and led by the GA initially at least. With the end goal being multiple forces from multiple systems that can work and fight together by having similar traditions, training, experience and doctrine in the early stages and allow them to grow independent from there.

The ultimate goal for the Verge/Protectorates is to create an exit timeline and a detailed plan as to what is expected of the systems in question, their growth and step by step plan on how they would gain control of their own military and enter into the Grand Alliance eventually or at the very least be a productive nation with defensive pact.


Long Term- The long term Goal is to prevent the Solarian League from rebuilding and starting a revanchist war in the decades to come. The idea and hope is for the League to be surrounded by independent nations which would be willing to band together to defend themselves with the support of the Alliance and for the Alliance to have a large group of allies who are very much unwilling to allow any Solarian influence near their borders.


Defensive Deployment: First Priority would be to secure Lynx, Beowulf and Joshua with sufficient mobile and fixed defences to prevent them falling into League hands and allowing the SLN breathing space and freedom of movement within their own territory. A force of 300 SD’s along with LAC’s, Forts, missile Pods and lighter combatants would be used to fortify the 3 most important WH Terminals.


The Grand Alliance will have to secure the most important industrial systems they have to protect:
-Manticore
-Grayson
-Haven
-Potsdam
-Bolthole
-Trevor’s Star
And any other industrial systems in Silesia, Talbott, the Republic or the Andermani Empire that require sufficient mobile firepower to secure the industrial backbone of the alliance. Combining fixed defences as well as mobile forces I would commit 500 SD’s to the various system pickets. Defenses would be fixed(Forts, missile pods) and mobile(Super Dreadnaughts, lighter combatants and LACs) and the deployment would be based on system importance and proximity to allied fleet units.


Strategic Reserve: 150 SD’s and 20 CLAC’s would be for the strategic reserve to be used to reinforce where there is need. The Strategic reserve would be located in the Manticore Home system to allow quick movement to any member of the Alliance should the need arise or one of the offensive fleet needs reinforcements.

Nodal Forces: There would be 3 Nodal forces equally distributed, 50 SD’s in a Nodal Reserve in Talbott, 50 SD’s in a Nodal reserve in the Haven System and 50 SD’s in the Andermani Empire for the Empire and Silesia. Each Nodal force would receive 10 CLAC’s as well as a complement of lighter combatants. 10 CLACS would be used to ferry LACs from manufacturing points to systems within the alliance to bolster the system defence forces.



Offensive Deployment Core/Shell: A fleet of 160 SD’s, 80 SD(P)’s, 60 of the CLAC’s would be in the offensive component of the Grand Fleet. Split into 4 task forces and they become the offensive arm of the GA, using the most modern vessels gives them the ability to beat anything they cant outrun and outrun anything they cant beat. The SD(P)’s allow the Alliance to bring forth tremendous firepower and the SD’s can add to the fire if/when the battle reaches their range.

First thing I would focus my offensive forces on would be major bases of the enemy within the Core and those I would use overwhelming force to capture/destroy, this may mean combining all 4 task forces for attacks on major bases that hold large concentration of active duty SLN SD’s first and foremost, hit them fast, hit them hard before they can get organized and most of all hit them from as far outside of their range as you can using the limited number of SD(P)’s. Whatever enemy warships that are captured, grab some for inspection in scuttle the rest. The ideal situation would be elimination of large # of SLN SD’s in the opening phases of the war, along with the reserve and simultaneously capturing the League’s ammunition storage, major bases, shipyards, repair yards as well as taking trained manpower from the enemy. With the elimination of their major bases and shipyards the SLN would be hard pressed to repair any damaged ships and replenish munitions after battle.

A shrinking force of SD’s, with limited munitions and even less operations bases and shipyards would mean that the SLN would be at a severe disadvantage after the opening stages of the war and it would allow for the Alliance to get further ahead technologically and increase their fleet by using their already substantial shipbuilding advantage.

Ideal situation is to occupy a League system without causing industrial damage and allowing them to secede from League and go their own way or form a nation with their neighbour. My belief is that in a situation like the League finds itself, the member systems being more loyal to their own system than the League in general will work in the favour of the GA as long as the GA does not bring any excessive hardships to the systems in question. Once a system is knocked out of the war they can be allowed to begin trade within the GA and verge/protectorates and maintain their economic interest within the verge as long as they abide by strict guidelines designed to encourage and improve the economic situation of the host system. Basically the GA would use willing core/shell systems to fund the industrialization of the verge while letting those core/shell systems get benefits from the growing markets in the verge and they get to keep their economic interests and grow them rather than having them nationalized.


Offensive Deployment Verge/Protectorates: The last force is the one that I see as the most important for the long term success of the GA, 20 SD(P)’s, 40 SD’s 20 CLACs, 350 BC’s, 300 CA’s, 300 CL’s and 400 DD’s would be split into 10 Task Forces and they would be send to a FF sector where they are to clear that sector of all FF ships and grade systems based on their perceived chances gaining and maintaining stability. Again start with sectors that have the highest concentration of FF warships and work down from there. Supported by munition ships, repair ships and the rest of the fleet train they enter a system with overwhelming force and force them to surrender or destroy them.


The way news and orders travel would be from Sol to the Frontier Security sector capitals and from there the governor and his naval commander would disperse those orders to the ships assigned to his area of operation, sector capitals would most likely also hold ammunition stores, repair yards etc… so capturing those systems and leaving a small picket and deploying as many pods as you can should deter any ships that happen to come back when the fleet is going hunting. The goal should be to destroy or capture as much of frontier fleet as possible before they are ultimately ordered to abandon the verge and retreat to the shell and core and deny them the use of their bases and facilities. Clear out Frontier Security and their client states and start compiling a list of possible independent systems for foreign aid, systems that have the best chance of long term stability and potential. As resources and personnel become available start from the top of the list and go down while doing the best you can to maintain some semblance of order in as many systems as possible even if the local dictator has to be kept in power until a proper and peaceful transition can be made.

Create civil affairs units which would offer advice to new governments, provide technical, educational and legal support for the systems most likely to succeed and then give them economic and industrial aid. Basically it would be like what Manticore did for Grayson with the added wrinkle of helping create a government and stabilize a nation... in a wider scale.

The future of the grand alliance is in the verge and protectorates, some core and shell systems might gravitate towards the GA, some might decide to form their own nations but investment of money and material would be most beneficial in the verge where $10 Billion worth of materials and industrial equipment would go much further than it would on a developed core and/or shell system. The best part is that Frontier Security specifically and the League in general have treated most if not all of the verge and protectorate worlds so brutally and assistance from the GA added to that would easily bring the majority of those systems naturally into the GA’s sphere of influence and would make most fiercely loyal to the GA especially once it becomes obvious that the GA and the League are two very different organizations when the GA build them up and gives them true independance.

This would have several advantages long term for the GA, one of the most important is that done properly this systems would be very much industrialized 40-60 years down the line with powerful fleets of their own, fleets that they wont have to be pressured into maintaining because they would remember exactly how the League treated them. And they would align with the GA in any future conflict while in the meantime maintaining the GA’s shipyards busy with natural expansion over the years. The other advantage would be that with the growth of those economies the GA’s underdeveloped industry would improve as well, the manticore home system might be heavily industrialized but the 40+ systems in Silesia and Talbot are not and neither is the majority of the Republic or the Andermani Empire. Using the growth of the verge and former protectorates over the next 50 years will grow the GA’s industry and economy. The goal would be to have the GA as a heavily industrialized naval power backed by several hundred to several thousand lightly to moderately industrialized nations that will be very inclined to support the GA in any subsequent war.


Industrial Goals: The #1 goal would be expansion of the Industry in Talbott and the republic to start off. There is tremendous potential in all of the Talbott Quadrant and the Republic as well as the Andermani Empire and Silesia. Use the industries of Manticore, Beowulf, Grayson, Haven and Andermani to expand the under developed alliance systems and over the next few dacades use the new industrial power to speed up the growth of the verge.

Diplomatic Goals:
The goal is to create a counter balance to the league made of any systems that seceded from the League, any neutral systems and the victims of Frontier Security. Maybe one of the aspects of any peace deal would be the League paying reparations to the Verge systems in the form of money and equipment, basically use the League to build up the nations they have abused for decades or centuries and then in turn those nations build their military power to guarantee that the League will not be able to threaten them or the GA.

Without Apollo the GA is dead. The SL is an arrogant gorilla. But still a gorilla. What are you going to do when the amped up gorilla makes a beeline for your Home System, and you have no Apollo? And no significant accel advantage.

The SL is not going to fight a protracted war. Do you blame them?

Apollo is complete and utter overkill for the job. Apollo was needed to take advantage of the full range of MDMs, with the additional benefit of having near real-time control of missiles in order to get through improving Havenite defenses. That's unneeded for the capabilities that the SLN has in 1914 (or even 1922). Hell, they can make up a good amount of the difference by just launching from 10 or 12 million clicks out at full power drive settings. It shortens the control loop and the SLN has nothing they can respond with.

What is needed is a sufficient supply of MDMs and pods. Even with a relatively limited number of podlayers, the Alliance can use the old "military freighter stuffed to the deckheads with pods" trick to ensure even old-style forces can get off meaningful numbers of MDMs.

completely agree with Duckk, Manticore has MDMs the Sollies SDM. any fights that involves GA SD(P)'s will just be a rerun of Buttercup where they just drive into a bit outside SDM range and then unload salvo after salvo of missiles at max accel and the sollies have to sit there and take it unable to do a single thing about it.

apollo is helpful but by no means REQUIRED to give the sollies the butt kicking they have been asking for.