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cthia wrote:@Jonathan.

@Galactic Sapper. Incoherent rambling? I thought I was handling quarantine just fine. Now I'm not so sure. Incoherent rambling frightens me.

But there's more.

I don't subscribe to the notion which says that if the GA finds out the location of Darius, that they're going to have an easy time of it. Take Forts. If MaLign Forts scale up to their largest ships, they're going to be huge stealthed objects.

The MaLign may have invisible Forts littering their system.

If the MAlign does anything of the sort you've discussed, the defenses won't matter. Someone, even if it's not Manticore, will sterilize the planet with c-fractional bombardment from outside the hyper limit. The forts might survive, but the population supporting them will not. Darius will have proven itself too dangerous to be allowed to exist.

Beowulf would do it without hesitation; Haven might; Grayson would; all assuming the Andermani don't beat them to it.

kzt wrote:Assuming you know exactly where it is, to hiy it directly you have to be close enough to the spider that it can't move out of the predicted area. Your detection is almost certianly going to be based on light speed.

So we'll assume it's 1.5 km on a side. It maneuvers at 150g. So your d=1/2AT^2 1500m=1/2*1500T^2

So basically, if you are within 450,000 km you can hit it. reliably. How hard will it be for the dozens of huge grasers on the spider to shoot you are 450,000km? How hard will it be to reach 450,000 km of the spider?

I suspect it will be very hard.

We also have to assume bringing up its sidewall bubble is going to be detectable. And the whole scenario presuposes the spider is well within 450k km of the planet, so range is not an issue. Besides, outside of 450k km energy weapons are going to have a hard time penetrating sidewalls going either way.

Galactic Sapper wrote:If the MAlign does anything of the sort you've discussed, the defenses won't matter. Someone, even if it's not Manticore, will sterilize the planet with c-fractional bombardment from outside the hyper limit. The forts might survive, but the population supporting them will not. Darius will have proven itself too dangerous to be allowed to exist.

Beowulf would do it without hesitation; Haven might; Grayson would; all assuming the Andermani don't beat them to it.

I refuse to believe that RFC will write a scene where Manticore has to surrender to the Malign. The other scene that I will not believe that he would write is having anyone sterilize a planet, not even Darius.

Beowuld has their ethics and Grayson would consider it a failure of the Test. Everyone will understand that only the leaders are to blame.

tlb wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:If the MAlign does anything of the sort you've discussed, the defenses won't matter. Someone, even if it's not Manticore, will sterilize the planet with c-fractional bombardment from outside the hyper limit. The forts might survive, but the population supporting them will not. Darius will have proven itself too dangerous to be allowed to exist.

Beowulf would do it without hesitation; Haven might; Grayson would; all assuming the Andermani don't beat them to it.

I refuse to believe that RFC will write a scene where Manticore has to surrender to the Malign. The other scene that I will not believe that he would write is having anyone sterilize a planet, not even Darius.

Beowuld has their ethics and Grayson would consider it a failure of the Test. Everyone will understand that only the leaders are to blame.

We are of one accord on both views. Almost.*

It is the same with the SL and the RMN. RFC had to resolve the beef between both Giants without one getting completely destroyed, without getting blown back to the dustbin of civilization.

Stories are also written by humans. But, when considering the MaLign, I'm not so certain. The MaLign are a bit off the rails. I'm not so sure RFC can leave that bunch still standing after the dust settles.

*I CAN see RFC writing a scene where he kicks up the volume on nail biting, seat of the pants, drama. Where the GA is apparently beaten and surrender is imminent. Except, PROVIDENCE.

I don't think the GA is going to easily defeat the MA. In fact, I believe only Honor's sixth sense or Abigail's skin crawling is going to be able to detect Malign stealth. A gut feeling is going to do-in MA stealth.

cthia wrote:I don't think the GA is going to easily defeat the MA. In fact, I believe only Honor's sixth sense or Abigail's skin crawling is going to be able to detect Malign stealth. A gut feeling is going to do-in MA stealth.

I think it's more likely to be Admiral Oversteegen to look at a totally innocent situation and suddenly show clairvoyance. Tiberian and particularly Chantilly, he was shown one thing, and you can almost visibly see the gut feeling suddenly strike and he'd give some orders and reveal the enemy trying something fancy.


So put him in the similar situation to that one Mesan Ghost was in Grayson gliding past the cruiser, and Oversteegen's likely to have suddenly had a gut feeling, popped off some Ghost Riders and revealed the presence of one or more spider ships in a system scouting.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

cthia wrote:@Jonathan.

@Galactic Sapper. Incoherent rambling? I thought I was handling quarantine just fine. Now I'm not so sure. Incoherent rambling frightens me.

But there's more.

I don't subscribe to the notion which says that if the GA finds out the location of Darius, that they're going to have an easy time of it. Take Forts. If MaLign Forts scale up to their largest ships, they're going to be huge stealthed objects.

The MaLign may have invisible Forts littering their system.

If the MAlign does anything of the sort you've discussed, the defenses won't matter. Someone, even if it's not Manticore, will sterilize the planet with c-fractional bombardment from outside the hyper limit. The forts might survive, but the population supporting them will not. Darius will have proven itself too dangerous to be allowed to exist.

Beowulf would do it without hesitation; Haven might; Grayson would; all assuming the Andermani don't beat them to it.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But without even knowing it, you've made my point for me. Both of them.

1. There IS such a thing as having enough hatred—so much seething hatred—for a planet, that you are willing to bombard. Everyone is forgetting the Malign's hatred for the damn disgusting do-gooder Beowulf. And her enabling pimps, Manticore.


2. Bombardments and EEV's are not far fetched notions per the attitudes of a collective humanity in the Honoverse. The Massadans proved that.

I disagree on Grayson. Grayson is capable of it, if, and only if, Grayson has exhausted all options. But in the end, Tester would show Grayson the way. Grayson cannot bombard a planet and kill an entire population. Or Masada would be mere dust mites in the dustbin of history.

tlb wrote:We know that Honor has anger management issues built into her genes. Except with regard to Beowulf the Malign is not acting from anger.

Thanks, that's exactly the point I'm trying to make.

The MaLign AREN'T acting in anger. It's much worse than that. They're acting on hatred. Which is much, much worse. Hatred is the later generations of anger. Centuries of anger has festered into something truly evil and sinister. Warped. Malignant. UGLY.

This hatred has been festering for centuries. And its intensity has not waned one bit. Recall how storyline says combatants have a hard time holding onto their anger during STL communications? Child's play for the MaLign.

No one gets it. These people are even MORE PISSED than they were centuries ago. YOU have forgotten their beef and cause. they haven't.

Hmm. Beef-n-Cause. Served in a crazy MaLign sauce.

One of the biggest tactical blunders is forgetting someone else's anger.

cthia wrote:
1. There IS such a thing as having enough hatred—so much seething hatred—for a planet, that you are willing to bombard. Everyone is forgetting the Malign's hatred for the damn disgusting do-gooder Beowulf. And her enabling pimps, Manticore.

2. Bombardments and EEV's are not far fetched notions per the attitudes of a collective humanity in the Honoverse. The Massadans proved that.

No one has forgotten Malign's hatred for Beowulf. Their anger with Manticore is only over the opposition to their activities. Oyster Bay was rushed in an attempt to get the plan back on track and protect Mesa from the Talbot Quadrant, not because of anger nor hatred. I believe the Onion fully expected Haven to take advantage with another attempt to conquer Manticore.

No one says that bommbardments and other EEV's are farfetched notions; the Solarian League would have never issued the Edict if it were farfetched. What is farfetched is the idea that RFC will allow one of the forces for good to do something like that; which Galactic Sapper appears to have forgotten.

But we can agree that the Malign might bombard a planet, if they thought that they could get away with it and/or that it would advance their plan. But I do not expect RFC to write something like that happening to Grayson, Beowulf or one of Manticore's planets.

tlb wrote:No one says that bommbardments and other EEV's are farfetched notions; the Solarian League would have never issued the Edict if it were farfetched. What is farfetched is the idea that RFC will allow one of the forces for good to do something like that; which Galactic Sapper appears to have forgotten.

But we can agree that the Malign might bombard a planet, if they thought that they could get away with it and/or that it would advance their plan. But I do not expect RFC to write something like that happening to Grayson, Beowulf or one of Manticore's planets.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing."

I agree that RFC is unlikely to construct a situation where any of this happens, but based on the character of the leaders and societies we've seen that is the most believable, in-character reaction. Beth probably would not do it. Honor would not. Mike Henke, assuming the throne because Beth, Beth's kids, and Prince Michael all got turned into fallout? Yeah, she'd order it and her only regret would be that she wasn't in command of the fleet that carried it out.

Beowulf is harder, simply because we don't know the characters as much. But again, yes, they'd probably do it.

Benjamin wouldn't take it as a failure of his Test, he'd see it AS his test. Do I have the soul necessary to do the unthinkable to protect everything we hold dear? He'd do it with regrets but he'd do it.

Pritchard and Theisman would be much the same as Benjamin, just in less religious terms. A billion people in collateral damage, to save trillions? Especially when those billion are programmed from birth to believe in their genetic superiority and everyone else mere cattle to do with as they see fit? Neither would like it but again, they'd do it.

The Andermani are easiest of all. Darius is an existential threat and if taking it all the way out is an option they'll do it.

Keep in mind that this is a very specific situation, in which Darius has proven itself willing and capable to genocide planets at will and the system defenses are impregnable enough to resist any other approach to the problem. I would expect all of the above to lose at least one fleet trying a more conventional approach first, because c-fractional bombardment is the absolute last resort.

But say Grand Fleet shows up on Darius's doorstep and gets the same reception Filareta did at Manticore. What other options would be left except the unthinkable? Or do you think the good guys would take on the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality?

Edit: think of the MAlignment in terms of being the Rigelians from the Starfire series.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Keep in mind that this is a very specific situation, in which Darius has proven itself willing and capable to genocide planets at will and the system defenses are impregnable enough to resist any other approach to the problem. I would expect all of the above to lose at least one fleet trying a more conventional approach first, because c-fractional bombardment is the absolute last resort.

But say Grand Fleet shows up on Darius's doorstep and gets the same reception Filareta did at Manticore. What other options would be left except the unthinkable? Or do you think the good guys would take on the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality?

Edit: think of the MAlignment in terms of being the Rigelians from the Starfire series.

If you persist in thinking of Darius as a single unit, then it might be conceivable; but RFC will not write of it as a unit. The GA did not begin to think of Mesa as a place that needed to be erased, because they knew that most people there did not desire such a fate. They will know that the same is true of Darius; RFC is quite capable of devising another solution.

Obviously I can be wrong; I have been wrong many times before and there is no reason for that streak to end. But if I am wrong about planet destruction, then I will consider it a betrayal of everything in the Honorverse so far and put the books away.

Galactic Sapper wrote:
But say Grand Fleet shows up on Darius's doorstep and gets the same reception Filareta did at Manticore. What other options would be left except the unthinkable? Or do you think the good guys would take on the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality?

Edit: think of the MAlignment in terms of being the Rigelians from the Starfire series.

Well if the Grand Fleet shows up and the MAlign defensive forces blow them away I'm not sure how they're supposed to come back and bombard the planet. They just got utterly crushed in a totally lopsided battle.

But assuming they can defeat the defenders and reach orbit then they basically control the planet. Now if they haven't yet figured out that Darius is all the MAlign has then they might be worried about other undetected planets building up relief forces. But if they know Darius and its yards are it - well it doesn't take much force monitor thing and keep them bottled up on that one planet.

This isn't the 4th Interstellar War where cut off planets can produce a near endless number of gunboats out of their surface resources to overwhelm all but the strongest blockading fleet. In the Honorverse you need orbital yards, and a few years of construction time to build a warship. Even a DD could easily blow away any attempt to build that up. A single system, unlike the entire league, isn't an insurmountable problem to deny space to unless they have external allies that would send fleets to lift the blockade. (And yes, they do have the RA. But it'd rather blow their cover to send fleets to reclaim Darius)