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Someone with his head outta his ass wrote:So very far afield.

If the Alignment puts something like the LD's into close enough to Manticore to engage the defences in orbit (including any forts and warships parked nearby) and issues a surrender demand on the Command Authority (the Queen) and she does not accept, do you really think that the Alignment is not going to crush Landing and the Palace by hitting them with something aready lurning in orbit? Or some truly large fusion device smuggled on-planet?

EXACTLY.


****** *


'Tsk' 'Tsk' 'Tsk'

Detweiler has gamed it all out in his luxurious War Room.

After his opening chess moves Detweiler moves into his End Game.


Even if all of you are proposing that Beth is suicidal, do you believe Queen Elizabeth is as well? She has the entire system to worry about.

The MaLign has Beth, Queen Elizabeth, and the entire system by the throat! If you really don't think they will launch -- not just on the planets, but on the government and on the system as well -- then you are delusional AND as dumb as Filareta. Actually, FILARETA was actively coerced. What is all of your excuses? Where in Hell's Perdition have you found an excuse to make this entity launch on you???

How many movies have you seen where a Desperado gets the drop on someone important and says "Drop it or she dies" not prompt the hero to lay down his arms?

LIVE TO DIE ANOTHER DAY!

Make no mistake about this people. The CO aboard LD(1) is carrying as much anger into the system as Honor carried to Sol. He has as much steel resolve in his voice as Honor's. Honor Harrington's beast was "one wrong Solarian decision away," from letting go. So too, LD(1).

If you back this adversary into a corner with their hands around your throat, if you force his hand, you will die.


Just like Honor, the Malign CO is just HOPING Manticore refuses to surrender. Detweiler wants nothing more than sweet revenge for his father's death!

Do all of you really think the MaLign don't have the guts, the intestinal fortitude, the resolve, the chutzpah to go thru with this?

Whah?

The same entity that culls... babies, infants, teenagers, adults, young, old... ENTIRE SEGMENTS OF THEIR OWN POPULATION!!!??? . . .

Will they hesitate to cull these Mighty Manty Maggots who they have hated for Centuries. Decades. Years. Months. Weeks. Seconds?

The MA has beat the RMN on a technicality and now you are all proposing the Manties should act like sore losers. Scratch that! Sore SUICIDAL losers.

FOOL'S MATES tend to do that to people. I don't like finding myself the victim of one either. That's why I steer clear of them. LOL


WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD

I see there are stragglers willing to fight.

You don't think it's mate do you?

You're willing to throw a lot of assets at this problem. Rooks, Bishops, Knights. Queens too?

They will all die. Sacrificed all for naught.

Everything coming thru the junction will be destroyed or mission killed. How many Cataphracts launched from watermelon seed spitting distance does it take to mission kill an RMN unit? They are not invincible.

AND MIND YOU, the 3-second firing GRASER TORPS CAN'T EVEN BE LOCALIZED EVEN IF THEY KNOW THEY'RE COMING!

But you're right after all. The RMN can contest the predicament they're in like a bunch of spoiled rich brats accustomed to getting their way. But not this time says the MaLign. Not a checkmate? Fine. . . .


END GAME

. . .


NANITE TO QUEEN PALACE(1). CHECK.

MATE IN THREE


1. MISSION KILL EVERYTHING COMING OUT OF JUNCTION. The MA has been sitting and watching. Space around the junction is vast. Huge. All ships take planned routes. The MA have isolated ambush points. All of those surplus LDs had missions too. Stalk infrastructure. Mining. Space Stations. Etc. They were sitting there the whole time.

2. SEIZE THE QUEEN via Nanite Compulsion of key players. Or, prevent her from being Castled. Awaiting a bombardment on her location.

If the MALign's hand is forced, the Queen will die. Perhaps the next in line of succession is thinking with a clearer head.

"Who's in Charge?" is the MaLign's version of "Who's on First?"

3. SCORCHED EARTH After his virtuoso of moves on the chess board. Detweiler's speech rings true. "I trust you won't force me to sadly play my hole card." Although no one detected one bit of sadness, at all. After the MaLign are thru, the MBS will be thrust back to a living, below that of the denizens of the planet Refuge.


CHECKMATE


Manties, pour your own poison.



DOSES OF K U D O S BRIGADE XO!

I do believe you earned one of these before.

.

cthia wrote:BTW, the threat of bombardment ALWAYS exists when an attacker holds your orbitals, demands your surrender; and you get uppity.

Is anyone telling me the amped up Honor in UH wasn't prepared to go the whole nine? PLEASE! Honor was JUST HOPING someone would "MAKE MY DAY." Honor was ticking so hard, the crew thought a time bomb was hidden somewhere on the bridge.

My earlier point about Honor, is that she demanded surrender BEFORE she entered orbit. And that at least the MaLign are a bit more courteous, and less disrespectful. LOL

Yes, the threat always exists; whether or not it is an EE does not change the dilemma faced by the planetary government.

We know that Honor has anger management issues built into her genes. Except with regard to Beowulf the Malign is not acting from anger.

Since there is nothing wrong with demanding surrender from any point in space, it is not clear what your point is in this instance.

No one is arguing that the MAlign wouldn't demand surrender under the threat of bombarding the planet and killing a lot of civilians if they a) thought they could do it and b) thought it would serve their goals.

There are multiple arguments going on, though:

1) it's an EE violation to do that. It wouldn't stop the MAlign, but nonetheless it is. The distinction is what is being threatened. In the case of the defender navy force having been defeated, the demand to surrender saves further military lives. The refusal to surrender means an invasion with orbital bombardment of military targets, and though that endangers civilians, it's not much more than otherwise. In the case of a sneak approach without defeating the defenders, it's a hostage situation, a terrorist attack.

2) demanding surrender does not serve their purposes. Because of (1), no one is going to be under the illusion that Manticore refusing to surrender makes their subsequent bombardment acceptable. Therefore, they wouldn't demand the surrender in the first place, they'd just bombard directly if they could. In fact, I think that in that situation, the local planetary governments would surrender, but the undefeated mobile forces in the system wouldn't; they'd just escape into hyper and fight another day to liberate their homeworld. That means the MAlign now has a planet to control, which needs an occupation force. Where is it going to get one? And how is it going to hold down the guerrilla? Bombarding civilians again?

3) they couldn't get that close to the planet anyway. I've argued that a high-speed attack on the planet is possible. If they just want to destroy things, they can do that. But if they want to show the defenders they're serious while they give them 2 hours or 15 minutes to surrender, they'd have to sneak in too close and too slowly for them to succeed. No stealth is perfect and at some distance you will be detected. And besides, if you give the defenders 2 minutes, they'll blow you out of the sky. Unlike the defenders, the MAlign knows its LDs have no wedge or sidewalls and are thus eminently vulnerable to conventional attacks.

I recognize that arrogant, resting on your laurels, accent. I believe it is from the Sol System?

Mesan Alignment

PROPOSAL: New Weapon System
CLASS: ECM

The MA could devise platforms which give false indications that it is a spider drive. The GA net will be as confused as what GA ECM causes.

Did I not say batteries included?

WE ARE NOT HELPLESS
ARROGANCE K I L L S

cthia wrote:

Mesan Alignment

PROPOSAL: New Weapon System
CLASS: ECM

The MA could devise platforms which give false indications that it is a spider drive. The GA net will be as confused as what GA ECM causes.

Why would they intentionally emit something that won't be picked up? What's the point of an ECM platform that doesn't improve stealth or hinder detection?

In fact, it can be detrimental. The more units with spider drives there are, the bigger the chance one will fail and will be picked up in intact-enough pieces that would allow the MAlign's enemies to reverse engineer the spider drive.

Did I not say batteries included?

You did, but I ignored it because it sounded to me like a non-sequitur with no relevance to the discussion. Your metaphor flew right by me.

I don't think you meant literally, since an unpowered piece of equipment is an inert chunk of metal that has no effect in most battles.

Unpowered? Remember, stolen fusion technology. *

The platforms causing the false images could be called Mirages. Both the platform and the false images.

"Which way did he go?" LOL

* In chess, upon advancing a pawn to the eighth row, you get to exchange it for another piece. If the MA get to choose which piece of Manty tech it will go after, will it be FTL? The secret of missile performance? On the chess board you can always tell a weak player by what he chooses to promote to. Sometimes a lesser piece is better than a Queen.

The MA chooses to promote it's navy to the secret of fusion technology.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote: The mobile forces could flee if overwhelming force showed up to reclaim the terminus. A fort would have little choice but to stand and fight - but the light units used could run away - preserving RMN lives. Similarly, since this was a short term expedient there was no need to waste lives attempting to hold any given terminus. The SLN would have to spend months and much of its battle fleet chasing cruisers off of all the captured termini. And then keep those forces there to prevent the cruises from just coming back and closing the routes again. (Leaving Battle Fleet scattered into small packets far out of mutual support distance - a suicidal option when facing even a near-peer enemy; much less one whose heavy units can steamroll yours)

Still, if someone built a self deployable fort I doubt it'd close a wormhole down for hours. To close it down for even a single hour would require a fort massing 48 metatons - almost six and a half times an Invictus-class SD(P)!!!

I have not studied how long wormhole terminals are shut down as a function of mass, so I am not surprised that I got that wrong. But a self deployable fort could use the wormhole to flee as easy as any other mobile unit. However it is not clear how much force the SLN would have to muster before they could force a RMN fort to flee.

You're pretty vulnerable fleeing through a wormhole. It's the wormhole assault problem in reverse. As you approach the wormhole you have to drop your sidewalls and wedge, bring up sails, and lose the ability to use missiles or CMs.

I suspect if facing nearby overwhelming force the light units involved in Lacoon Two would mostly retreat through hyper. (Of course the hypothetical self-deploying fort could do that too. It'd just accelerate slower to get out of the terminus's hyper limit)

Cthia wrote:Even if all of you are proposing that Beth is suicidal, do you believe Queen Elizabeth is as well?

Are you implying that sovereignty has given Beth a split personality? Possibly it's all those times using the Royal We?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You did, but I ignored it because it sounded to me like a non-sequitur with no relevance to the discussion. Your metaphor flew right by me.

Was it metaphor or just incoherent rambling? The world may never know.

Regardless, the Lenny D's are suicidally vulnerable to nearly any attack as soon as they're localized. Both missiles and energy weapons are going to go through them like a hot knife through butter. Manticore could even use missiles in the boom configuration, punching the warhead clean through the bubble sidewall (with no wedge to stop it it's geometically much simpler to do) and that's a one hit kill on anything regardless of size. Lack of wedge also means anything in energy range has the equivalent of a perfect beam-on shot through the sidewall, which is not going to stop the grazers mounted on damn near everything Manticore builds now.

The point is that a spider drive ship in Manticore orbit has a life expectancy measured in seconds from the time they first transmit and give away their location. Assuming, that is, that their stealth can get them that close anyway, which it probably can't.

Assuming you know exactly where it is, to hiy it directly you have to be close enough to the spider that it can't move out of the predicted area. Your detection is almost certianly going to be based on light speed.

So we'll assume it's 1.5 km on a side. It maneuvers at 150g. So your d=1/2AT^2 1500m=1/2*1500T^2

So basically, if you are within 450,000 km you can hit it. reliably. How hard will it be for the dozens of huge grasers on the spider to shoot you are 450,000km? How hard will it be to reach 450,000 km of the spider?

I suspect it will be very hard.

@Jonathan.

@Galactic Sapper. Incoherent rambling? I thought I was handling quarantine just fine. Now I'm not so sure. Incoherent rambling frightens me.

But there's more.

I don't subscribe to the notion which says that if the GA finds out the location of Darius, that they're going to have an easy time of it. Take Forts. If MaLign Forts scale up to their largest ships, they're going to be huge stealthed objects.

The MaLign may have invisible Forts littering their system.