?

Jonathan_S wrote:Though there are real politic reasons for still observing the forms of the Edict.
The reason you're capturing the orbitals is so you can demand the planet and it'd defensive forces surrender. In the case of a capital planet so you can demand their entire fleet and other planets surrender.

The defensive force you reference are mainly those on the ground. If there are still defensive ships in system that are sufficient to force the attackers to surrender or flee, then there is NOT uncontested control of the orbitals and a surrender demand is premature.

tlb wrote:The defensive force you reference are mainly those on the ground. If there are still defensive ships in system that are sufficient to force the attackers to surrender or flee, then there is NOT uncontested control of the orbitals and a surrender demand is premature.

They may be in other systems or too far to intervene before the attackers could secure the planet. Such as in the Battle of Sol: the fall of Earth made the rest of the 1000 SDs in Battle Fleet and the thousands of BC-and-lower ships in FF surrender too.

It wouldn't have done them much good if they had been in the Solar System, but even the Grand Fleet would pause at 1500 SDs towing Cataphract pods and 2000 Nevada-class BCs to provide defence (and cannon fodder). They'd still be annihilated, but Grand Fleet would need to deploy LACs and shoot CMs back, which means tens of thousands of spacers might die defending the wall.

tlb wrote:The defensive force you reference are mainly those on the ground. If there are still defensive ships in system that are sufficient to force the attackers to surrender or flee, then there is NOT uncontested control of the orbitals and a surrender demand is premature.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:They may be in other systems or too far to intervene before the attackers could secure the planet. Such as in the Battle of Sol: the fall of Earth made the rest of the 1000 SDs in Battle Fleet and the thousands of BC-and-lower ships in FF surrender too.

I agree that any force that are outside of the contested system (meaning they would need to travel in hyperspace to return), does not count in the question of whether a planet's surrender can be forced. When the home planet surrenders, then they will be called upon to surrender also; whether or not they will do so depends on the situation.

But if a massive fleet returns home as the surrender demand is being given (so they are crossing into the hyper limit of the system), then the question of surrender is mooted until a military decision is reached. Indeed if the surrender has been accepted. but control has not been obtained on the ground; then that acceptance can be withdrawn.

Just a few loose ends . . .

Loren Pechtel wrote:That's how I understand it, also--the battle for space must be resolved before you start on the battle for the planet, and any time the battle is for something civilian you are expected to offer surrender first.

The battle for space IS resolved, the CRITICAL space that is; the space about the planet. Orbit.

"We presently control the orbitals. LOW. MEDIUM. HIGH. POLAR NORTH. POLAR SOUTH."

The battle for the planet began with the demand to surrender.

tlb wrote:There was a whole other thread about whether the Eridani Edict of the Solarian League still applies and basically it does not. However it is still a measuring stick for civilized behavior.

I'd really like to partake of that thread. Would you be so kind?

I agree. The EE is a meter stick for civilized behaviour. The problem with that, as something pointed out in the "Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind" thread, is that 'Technological Advancements further Catastrophic Ramifications.'

Specifically, in this case, MaLign stealth has rendered "civilized behaviour" as something that is also rather arbitrary.

But! Do be mindful of that rabbit hole. You may end up implicating us all by association.

tlb wrote:I am not assuming anything about how the Malign would interpret civilized behavior and I do not think that the SLN under Mandarin control behaved properly. I was only talking about the interpretation of how a civilized nation should interpret the rule.

That's fair. Let's instead grapple with how America has interpreted "civilized behaviour." . . .

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Another point is the section after the bolding: refusal to surrender does not imply indiscriminate bombarding of th planet. Threatening to destroy a few cities with nuclear bombs until the leaders surrender is not civilised behaviour.

"Good God! Cut communications! How much of that went out?"

Exhibit A: Nagasaki. Hiroshima.

That was our implication by association, right on time. I'm sure the Japanese would agree.

Besides, it IS discriminate. The MA only fired on military targets only after Manticore resisted their demands to surrender. Likewise, Japan. It could have been a lot worse.

The MaLign gave a whole hour, and possibly extended it. That's a lot better that what was dealt the Japanese.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:It allows for orbital bombardment of specific military targets. Since the orbiting fleet has uncontested control of the orbitals, it can take the time to set up precise KEW strikes to take out anti-aircraft, surface-to-air and surface-to-orbit installations, military bunkers, storage warehouses, garrisons, etc.

This is probably also a rule of thumb for how long the uncontested control must hold: if you don't have time to set up precise KEW strikes and/or send marines, you don't have control.

The Eridani Strike Computers are building up a lot of heat running CSAPPS. They've got their own heat sink. IOW, the planet's arteries have long been dialed in. The LDs weren't simply twiddling their thumbs while cloaked.

As far as retaliations. Manticore has to worry about its own reprisals, directed against it from the SL. And the SL knows where to find the MBS. Darius is till hidden. Besides, in war, there is always a chance of reprisals, but it is rarely a game changer.

tlb wrote:The defensive force you reference are mainly those on the ground. If there are still defensive ships in system that are sufficient to force the attackers to surrender or flee, then there is NOT uncontested control of the orbitals and a surrender demand is premature.

Premature or not, the demand to surrender has been issued. And, unlike Honor, but just like Terekov, the MA CO is wearing his tick on his wrist.

BTW, the MA disagrees with you whether there's any significant help on the way . . .


Third Battle of Manticore
Third time's a charm?
Or three strikes you're out?

MA Tactics: Rough Draft. OBJECTIVES.

• LD(1) Insertion into Manticore A. Stalk Home Fleet sitting pretty in Sphinx orbit. Byng it. *
• LD(2) Insertion into MBS. Stalk any significant force. Byng it.*
• LD(3) Byng everything in Manticoran orbit.*
  
• LD(4) Isolate critical arteries with strike computers.
• LD(5) Stalk MWJ. Turn junction into a one-way valve. Roaches check in, but they don't check out. Fire on everything incoming from stealth. Note: Objective isn't to take junction, but simply prevent any timely reinforcements to the planet. They transit into Ma fire and brimstone.

*According to planned coordination of force.

THE JUNCTION CANNOT SEND A WARNING BACK THRU. COURTESY LD(5). THE MALIGN BEG THE QUESTION WHETHER THE FORTS COULD USE THEIR MOBILITY TO FORM A BARRIER AGAINST WHATEVER THE HELL IS BYNGING EVERYTHING COMING THRU. THE LDs OUT ACCELERATE THE ROOKS BY A FACTOR OF 4.

Weapons: New generation Silver Bullets.
As a result of stolen RMN fusion technology. Smaller. Convenient - launched natively from an LD.

Result: A weapon already stealthier than a GR drone, has now been made just as convenient and practical.


ASSISTANCE WILL NOT BE COMING.

Like sands thru the hourglass,
So are the days of your lives.

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK TICK TOCK TICK TOCK

tlb wrote:There was a whole other thread about whether the Eridani Edict of the Solarian League still applies and basically it does not. However it is still a measuring stick for civilized behavior.

cthia wrote:I'd really like to partake of that thread. Would you be so kind?

You were part of that thread. The point that was being strongly presented was that the Solarian League prior to the Manticore vs Haven War was the only body that could enforce that edict in a galaxy where total planet destruction was possible. So the Eridani Edict has been reduced to an aspiration from its former status of a guarantee. Post League Eridani

This topic wandered into the weeds a bit. Time in possession of the orbitals is largely irrelevant due to the limitations on bombardment given in the Edict. Any sort of bombardment has to be done in service of occupying the planet. Bombardment is only allowed in as much as it serves to expedite said occupation and/or reduce casualties where they matter (the attacking force). Bombardment is going to be a violation if used any time or place outside serving that purpose of making occupation easier. Read the Pearls entry with that thought in mind.

Galactic Sapper wrote:This topic wandered into the weeds a bit. Time in possession of the orbitals is largely irrelevant due to the limitations on bombardment given in the Edict. Any sort of bombardment has to be done in service of occupying the planet. Bombardment is only allowed in as much as it serves to expedite said occupation and/or reduce casualties where they matter (the attacking force). Bombardment is going to be a violation if used any time or place outside serving that purpose of making occupation easier. Read the Pearls entry with that thought in mind.

" There are also commonly accepted rules of war. For example, one is expected to accept surrenders, and the intentional striking of a warship's wedge is universally regarded as indicating surrender. For another example, a planet is expected to surrender once a hostile fleet controls the space around it, rather than holding out and requiring a bloody assault which will increase casualties for both sides."

cthia wrote:"We presently control the orbitals. LOW. MEDIUM. HIGH. POLAR NORTH. POLAR SOUTH."

Nitpicking: a polar orbit includes both North and South poles. When you're orbiting, you're performing a circular or elliptical path around the body in question, not sitting on top of a single point. The only "exception" to this rule is not much of an exception: a geostationary orbit is still a circular orbit around the planet, but its duration happens to coincide with the body's rotation, so the point directly below is the same. Any other orbit, including the polar ones, see multiple points.

"Good God! Cut communications! How much of that went out?"

Exhibit A: Nagasaki. Hiroshima.

I'm not going to enter that discussion. Whether justified or not, those two and any other nuclear bombings that may have happened in the next 1000 years do not affect how the Edict laid after the Epsilon Eridani Incident is viewed.

Besides, it IS discriminate. The MA only fired on military targets only after Manticore resisted their demands to surrender. Likewise, Japan. It could have been a lot worse.

Flattening a couple of cities and killing millions of people just to prove a point is not civilised, as per the rules that were laid out to us in the Honorverse. Softening military targets prior to an occupation could be accepted; destroying cities cannot.

I don't know how the civilised universe would see a case of planet refusing to surrender and preparing for Total War, or what actions could be taken to remedy that situation. A siege/blockade, if feasible, keeps everyone outside happy, at the expense of the populace on the planet. They'll either overthrow their leaders who refused to surrender, or they'll be further preparing for Total War.

And this is actually relevant because Darius may refuse to surrender. What do the GA+SL do?

The Eridani Strike Computers are building up a lot of heat running CSAPPS. They've got their own heat sink. IOW, the planet's arteries have long been dialed in. The LDs weren't simply twiddling their thumbs while cloaked.

I'm not saying the calculations are difficult. But positioning the ship that will launch the strike may be: in order to minimise the collateral damage, it needs to be in a certain narrow position so the payload is as small as it can be to take out the target, not burn up completely in the atmospherical reentry and not destroy too much around the target, nor miss it.

[Personal wondering: if the payload has never been in the atmosphere, is it still called reentry?]

As far as retaliations. Manticore has to worry about its own reprisals, directed against it from the SL. And the SL knows where to find the MBS. Darius is till hidden. Besides, in war, there is always a chance of reprisals, but it is rarely a game changer.

Why would the SL retaliate? The terms that the GA offered were plenty generous for the atrocities that the SL perpetrated during the course of the war (Operation Buccaneer, the Parthian Shot/Option), before the war on the Verge, and how thoroughly corrupt it was and infiltrated with enemy agents. The GA did the SL a favour. The GA did not take the war to any member system except for Sol itself, so everyone else has little reason to hate the Manties, aside from propaganda and the economic downturn. Anyway, the winners write history, so now the GA has to do all it can to keep revanchism down, by offering to help out those very same member systems and even Sol, countering the Mesa-sponsored propaganda. There was a whole thread on this.

MA Tactics: Rough Draft. OBJECTIVES.

• LD(1) Insertion into Manticore A. Stalk Home Fleet sitting pretty in Sphinx orbit. Byng it. *
• LD(2) Insertion into MBS. Stalk any significant force. Byng it.*
• LD(3) Byng everything in Manticoran orbit.*
  
• LD(4) Isolate critical arteries with strike computers.
• LD(5) Stalk MWJ. Turn junction into a one-way valve. Roaches check in, but they don't check out. Fire on everything incoming from stealth. Note: Objective isn't to take junction, but simply prevent any timely reinforcements to the planet. They transit into Ma fire and brimstone.

Is that number next to LD the ship number? Because one ship is not going to do Home Fleet much damage. It's not going to get close enough for a surprise attack. Home Fleet and other fleet agglomerations should also never sit still for prolonged periods.

#3 is definitely a Violation, but we have clear evidence that the MAlign has moved past it. Exhibit A: Beowulf Alpha. Exhibit B: Beowulf Beta. Exhibit C: Beowulf Gamma. But as I said earlier in this thread, such an attack is not a surprise close-range one, but a high-speed attack from afar. And because it's not going to catch all forces in the system (if any!), it cannot enter orbit to do #4.

And #5 is a definite impossibility. We don't know what kinds of defences the planets have, whether they have forts, fortresses or OWPs. But we do know the Junction has forts, at least a couple of which are keeping their bubblewalls up and they protect the inbound lanes. A fort can go toe-to-toe with an LD and win. If the LD enters its own energy weapon range, it's within range of the forts' energy weapons too. Any missiles can be picked off with the CM and PDLC batteries the forts have. Don't mention stealth: the moment the LD fires, its location can be pinpointed for return fire.

A shoal of widely-dispersed graser platforms could do a lot of damage, but deploying such a dispersion requires time in proximity to the single busiest 100 cubic light-second volume in the known Galaxy. Someone or a patrolling LAC or recon drone is going to see you before you're ready.

No, the Junction cannot be taken by any known force, short of the Grand Fleet itself, nor impede movement through the Junction. The rushed-in forces from the other termini will get through and get their wedges and sidewalls up, then chase down any remaining attackers, before moving to relieve the system. What's more, those LDs are sitting ducks, since they don't have wedges and they are within the Junction's hyperlimit, without the benefit of a high-speed pass.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Nitpicking: a polar orbit includes both North and South poles. When you're orbiting, you're performing a circular or elliptical path around the body in question, not sitting on top of a single point. The only "exception" to this rule is not much of an exception: a geostationary orbit is still a circular orbit around the planet, but its duration happens to coincide with the body's rotation, so the point directly below is the same. Any other orbit, including the polar ones, see multiple points.

Thanks for correcting me, for the record and for the sake of accuracy. Although, I was being facetious. A bit of MaLign humor. The MA aren't TOTALLY wrapped too tightly. I don't think. LOL

I'm not going to enter that discussion. Whether justified or not, those two and any other nuclear bombings that may have happened in the next 1000 years do not affect how the Edict laid after the Epsilon Eridani Incident is viewed.

Yes, that can of worms is best left sealed tightly. My point is to show how human nature has reacted in time of war under the same circumstances. It's war. Plain and simple. When an adversary feels wronged, you must take them seriously whether you think their anger is merited or not. Decades of smoldering hasn't cooled Malign embers one bit. Not even a little. Obviously they don't think it's "Just to make a point." But if so, they've certainly made that point with OB. They are not going quietly into the night. They haven't gotten over it. Whatever IT is.

And again, under the circumstances, I do not think "controlling the orbitals" and issuing demands to surrender before bombarding the planet is an EE violation. Not after there are no more sands in the hourglass. IT IS WAR. In the end, war is always waged by humans (as opined by Honor), but it ISN'T always waged by "sane" humans. Because sanity...can be...just so...arbitrary.

I posited the MA has designed weapons to complement their unbridled technology. CSAPPS are dense, very small projectiles engineered to withstand the extreme heat which cause tree-like sap at the impact site. As long as the projectile doesn't lose any of it's "shingles" on reentry, so says NASA, it should be ok. The strike computers are capable behemoths.

Why would the SL retaliate? The terms that the GA offered were plenty generous for the atrocities that the SL perpetrated during the course of the war (Operation Buccaneer, the Parthian Shot/Option), before the war on the Verge, and how thoroughly corrupt it was and infiltrated with enemy agents. The GA did the SL a favour. The GA did not take the war to any member system except for Sol itself, so everyone else has little reason to hate the Manties
]

"Little" reason to hate the Manties is just so arbitrary, and objective, and disrespectful to those diehards who are still boiling, stark raving, rabid mad. Heck, nobody in the SL had a reason to hate the Manties in the first place. But we know how that went. The Andermani didn't have a reason to hate the Manties either, but we know how that went. At any rate, you actually believe a SL which has put on a couple thousand pounds of pure muscle and irresistible tech will hesitate to squash the bug which beat them, along with the bug which betrayed them? IMO, the Manties better not even fart near the refurbished gorilla.

Is that number next to LD the ship number? Because one ship is not going to do Home Fleet much damage. It's not going to get close enough for a surprise attack. Home Fleet and other fleet agglomerations should also never sit still for prolonged periods.

I did say it was a "rough" draft.

As far as the number of ships tasked to complete an objective, is certainly rough. It counts on Home Fleet sitting pretty and completely oblivious to byngs little stealthed spirits poking along after them. But there are contingency plans if not.

Should "never" sit still is just so arbitrary. And never is such a long long time in the midst of complacency and human nature.

I know the forts "should" protect the inbound lanes. And I imagine they do. Just not so sure they can do so against such a completely stealthed adversary with batteries included.

Dunno if the LDs will launch themselves or a battery of stealthy pods of GTs emplaced, or, or, or...

The MA has some notion of fire and brimstone. I'm certain the tactic won't work totally, but whether it won't suffice to prevent a sufficiently undamaged and battle worthy force from assisting the planet? Probably not as well. After all, this is the mighty Manties, but the MA are not too afraid to try.

Again, the objective isn't to take the junction. Whether the MA and their new tech - made possible by stolen Manty secrets - agrees with you is another matter.

As far as how many will be earmarked for certain tasks, I can only speculate. But! . . .

We had a thread asking what Honor's speech to the SL should be when she invaded. What will Detweiler's speech to the MBS be?


Detweiler is sitting in his War Room, contemplating, when he is delivered the news.

With twenty-eight Shark-class training ships having been successful, a far bigger number of Leonard Detweiler-class units were planned to be built. The first units awaited completion in the Alignment's secret base in the Darius System in the early 1920s PD. (SI2)

"They are ready!"

"A far BIGGER number?! "



I'm not an Alpha, but I bet I know what he's thinking.

• 5 X (The Big 5) = 25 = Surplus

cthia wrote:Yes, that can of worms is best left sealed tightly. My point is to show how human nature has reacted in time of war under the same circumstances. It's war. Plain and simple. When an adversary feels wronged, you must take them seriously whether you think their anger is merited or not. Decades of smoldering hasn't cooled Malign embers one bit. Not even a little. Obviously they don't think it's "Just to make a point." But if so, they've certainly made that point with OB. They are not going quietly into the night. They haven't gotten over it. Whatever IT is.

And again, under the circumstances, I do not think "controlling the orbitals" and issuing demands to surrender before bombarding the planet is an EE violation. Not after there are no more sands in the hourglass. IT IS WAR. In the end, war is always waged by humans (as opined by Honor), but it ISN'T always waged by "sane" humans. Because sanity...can be...just so...arbitrary.

I posited the MA has designed weapons to complement their unbridled technology.

War might be started and fought by the insane, they do not perform as well as those that keep most of their sanity. There were regrettable things done in WW2, but poison gas on the battlefield was not one of them; so some rules still held.

Unless I am very mistaken, RFC plans for Manticore and her allies to win, so I will never expect him to write a scene where an invincible fleet of Malign warships is orbit around Manticore demanding surrender. Therefore I do not understand your point. Yes; if such a fleet surrounded Manticore, then the government would have to surrender.