Raoul/Katherine Inheritance

MC1560 wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Why the hell not? Emily and Honor were legally married, so inheritance should go to their children regardless of who bore them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed. De jure they are Harringtons. Since inheritance is law, that should suffice.

So, if Katherine was born first, all of the Harrington lands/titles would go to her while Honor's biological son is left out?

Does that sound right to you?

Assuming that's how inheritance law works, yes. Honor would have known ahead of time that was a possibility. But we don't know the law.

It's also possible that the titles and lands associated with each are indivisible, but multiple titles belonging to one person or people can be bequeathed to different offspring.

Usually, though, when one renounces a title, they renounce for all their children too, so if Hamish renounced the White Haven Earldom, it would pass to Willie.

Is Ruth in line for the throne? Ahead of other biological Winton's?

If a widower with children remarries a women with children who are older than his own, do they get placed ahead in the line of succession?

Ruth is not because of a law specifically passed that she isn't. The fact that there is a law indicates that either she would be or that it's sufficiently unclear that she or someone else on her behalf could make the case.

As for whether pre-existing children would enter the inheritance line ahead of someone else, depends on the terms of the marriage. Today, in a marriage of full communion, all pre-existing assets belong to the couple, regardless of who owned what at the time of the marriage. This type of marriage isn't very common these days because of divorces, but it exists and that's how my parents married. It's also possible this type of marriage no longer exist in the future (forbidden by law to prevent Black Widow[er] scams).

In a marriage of partial communion, all pre-existing assets belong solely to their original owner, but anything acquired during the marriage belongs to both.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Until the recent inheritance change, it didn't matter which mother had the child, since all inheritance went through the father. All the children in a family had the same father so all could inherit from him independent of which wife (or mistress, on occasion) had given birth to the child. There has never been a case on Grayson where a child stood to inherit through their mother so the problem has never come up. Now that it can, they have some tough choices to make.

Indeed.

We don't know the text of the law, though I can readily imagine it talked about men and "male heirs". But that changed with Faith. So it's entirely possible it simply now says "a biological descendant of two legally married members of the group marriage".

I suspect the Council of Steadholders would not approve a change that allowed the Steadholdership to pass to someone who is not their biological descendant, meaning Katherine could not inherit the Harrington Steading, but they could have allowed for other assets to go to any child of the marriage, adopted or natural.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Usually, though, when one renounces a title, they renounce for all their children too, so if Hamish renounced the White Haven Earldom, it would pass to Willie.

Though we know that at least the Manticoran Monarch can abdicate to pass the crown down early to their heir - because the Manticore Ascendant books show that King Michael abdicated and his son Edward assumed the throne.

It's possible, we simply don't know, that Manticoran law may allows all nobles the option to either renounce of abdicate their title. (With renouncing, as you say, taking their descendants out of the line of succession; while abdicating would just pass the title down early)

But with only that one example I can find of abdication, and only ex-Countess of Tor's example of renunciation, we just can't tell whether both options are available to all nobility or not.

MC1560 wrote:

cthia wrote:The first born simply must be the one who inherits. That is a fair way of doing things that limits favoritism and unfairness.

Yes

cthia wrote:trying to be "half the man his mother is."

Raoul will probably be 7ft.

Certainly in stature, tho not necessarily in stature.

Jonathan_S wrote:Though we know that at least the Manticoran Monarch can abdicate to pass the crown down early to their heir - because the Manticore Ascendant books show that King Michael abdicated and his son Edward assumed the throne.

True, but abdication is different. That means "pass to the next person after me". If Hamish abdicates, the first heir immediately gets it. That would be Raoul. Hamish can't force Raoul to abdicate, it would have to be Raoul's voluntary choice.

Interestingly, three European monarchs (Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, King Albert II of Belgium and and King Juan Carlos I of Spain) and one Pope abdicated/resigned within 1 year of one another in 2013 and 2014. The monarchs were succeeded by their eldest sons in each case.

It's possible, we simply don't know, that Manticoran law may allows all nobles the option to either renounce of abdicate their title. (With renouncing, as you say, taking their descendants out of the line of succession; while abdicating would just pass the title down early)

But with only that one example I can find of abdication, and only ex-Countess of Tor's example of renunciation, we just can't tell whether both options are available to all nobility or not.

True, though we can guess with fairly good accuracy that renunciation and abdication are there. What we don't know is they can divide their titles and renounce only part of them. It was possible in Europe, especially as nobles held titles of foreign nationality. So we're probably pretty sure that the Steadholdership in Grayson is wholly separate from the Earldom of White Haven, as it was separate from the Earldom of Harrington. Whether the Duchy and the Steadholdership are linked somehow is unknown.

Wasn't there a discussion that Grayson and Manticore agreed to obey each other's inheritance laws? Must have happened after Honor "died".

ThinksMarkedly wrote:True, but abdication is different. That means "pass to the next person after me". If Hamish abdicates, the first heir immediately gets it. That would be Raoul. Hamish can't force Raoul to abdicate, it would have to be Raoul's voluntary choice.

There isn't anything stopping Raoul from keeping all the lands/titles so that he can give them to his children rather than his half sibling.

MC1560 wrote:There isn't anything stopping Raoul from keeping all the lands/titles so that he can give them to his children rather than his half sibling.

As far as we know, that's a possibility. Katherine and their younger sibling would hardly be destitute, though.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:True, though we can guess with fairly good accuracy that renunciation and abdication are there. What we don't know is they can divide their titles and renounce only part of them. It was possible in Europe, especially as nobles held titles of foreign nationality. So we're probably pretty sure that the Steadholdership in Grayson is wholly separate from the Earldom of White Haven, as it was separate from the Earldom of Harrington. Whether the Duchy and the Steadholdership are linked somehow is unknown.

Wasn't there a discussion that Grayson and Manticore agreed to obey each other's inheritance laws? Must have happened after Honor "died".

Well, the separation of the Steading and the Earldom is a pretty strong hint that the Duchy and the Steading aren't explicitly linked either. But they are effectively inseparable given Grayson's conversion from "eldest son/brother inherits" to "eldest child/sibling inherits".

That isn't saying separation is impossible, it'd just take something weird like a future heir who is excommunicated from Grayson's church or perhaps being born out of wedlock(I assume Manticore doesn't really care about bastardy) and thus becoming ineligible to inherit the Steading should a legitimate sibling be born but still being first in line for the Duchy.

munroburton wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:True, though we can guess with fairly good accuracy that renunciation and abdication are there. What we don't know is they can divide their titles and renounce only part of them. It was possible in Europe, especially as nobles held titles of foreign nationality. So we're probably pretty sure that the Steadholdership in Grayson is wholly separate from the Earldom of White Haven, as it was separate from the Earldom of Harrington. Whether the Duchy and the Steadholdership are linked somehow is unknown.

Wasn't there a discussion that Grayson and Manticore agreed to obey each other's inheritance laws? Must have happened after Honor "died".

Well, the separation of the Steading and the Earldom is a pretty strong hint that the Duchy and the Steading aren't explicitly linked either. But they are effectively inseparable given Grayson's conversion from "eldest son/brother inherits" to "eldest child/sibling inherits".

That isn't saying separation is impossible, it'd just take something weird like a future heir who is excommunicated from Grayson's church or perhaps being born out of wedlock(I assume Manticore doesn't really care about bastardy) and thus becoming ineligible to inherit the Steading should a legitimate sibling be born but still being first in line for the Duchy.

The Duchy and the Steading have separate lines of inheritance, as shown when Honor's cousin became Earl Harrington, but Faith-to-Be (the first-born of Allison's twins) was accepted by the Steadholders as the heir to the Steading when the Peeps (and everyone else) thought they had killed Honor (and everybody else aboard Vlad Tepes).

ThinksMarkedly wrote:True, though we can guess with fairly good accuracy that renunciation and abdication are there. What we don't know is they can divide their titles and renounce only part of them. It was possible in Europe, especially as nobles held titles of foreign nationality. So we're probably pretty sure that the Steadholdership in Grayson is wholly separate from the Earldom of White Haven, as it was separate from the Earldom of Harrington. Whether the Duchy and the Steadholdership are linked somehow is unknown.

Wasn't there a discussion that Grayson and Manticore agreed to obey each other's inheritance laws? Must have happened after Honor "died".

munroburton wrote:Well, the separation of the Steading and the Earldom is a pretty strong hint that the Duchy and the Steading aren't explicitly linked either. But they are effectively inseparable given Grayson's conversion from "eldest son/brother inherits" to "eldest child/sibling inherits".

That isn't saying separation is impossible, it'd just take something weird like a future heir who is excommunicated from Grayson's church or perhaps being born out of wedlock(I assume Manticore doesn't really care about bastardy) and thus becoming ineligible to inherit the Steading should a legitimate sibling be born but still being first in line for the Duchy.

Fox2! wrote:The Duchy and the Steading have separate lines of inheritance, as shown when Honor's cousin became Earl Harrington, but Faith-to-Be (the first-born of Allison's twins) was accepted by the Steadholders as the heir to the Steading when the Peeps (and everyone else) thought they had killed Honor (and everybody else aboard Vlad Tepes).

The discussion about inheritance came about precisely because Honor's cousin would have had a very strong claim on the Harrington Steading, if he had decided to pursue it. He did not do so and then it became moot when Honor's mother became pregnant resulting in a stronger claimant on Grayson. If Honor's sister had been born earlier then the two titles would have remained united in one person. That is what Munroburton is saying: it would require very unusual circumstances for the titles to go to separate people.

However as a matter of politics, I do expect the White Haven title to go to someone other than the person that holds the Harrington title on Manticore.