The E wrote:Because you're a moron who makes statements that are easily disproven using the sources you claim to use?
Don't be harsh to him, it's not his fault he's a 'murikun.

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Michael Everett
Posts: 2621
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Don't be harsh to him, it's not his fault he's a 'murikun. ![]() ~~~~~~
I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork. (Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC! ACNH Dreams at DA-6594-0940-7995 |
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The E
Posts: 2704
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I am writing a post on forums.davidweber.net, not an economics doctoral thesis.
Upward mobility is real, yes. Education is a path to it, yes. But it's not an equal-opportunity path. How successful you are is largely determined by how sucessful your parents were; It takes an extraordinary amount of drive and talent to compensate for a lack of money. Online education, as great as it can be, lacks things that an in-person education can provide: namely, an environment where you interact with others and develop ideas and connections, so even if you have attained a degree from totallynotascamuniversity.com, you won't have the connections someone else may have.
And this is where you misunderstand what the phrase means. Let's define some terms. "Means of production" means anything that a worker needs to turn his capacity for work into something useful to others. In the classic industrial sense, that's stuff like a workbench, tools, access to raw materials, anything that allows a person to practice their trade. Looking further, it also includes things like access to health care, access to housing, access to food, access to education; a worker that can't stay healthy and can't stay up to date will not be able to perform as well as one who can. In other words, "public ownership of the means of production" does not mean that you can't own a house, or tools, or a car, or have a good meal: It just means that the tools are available to you out of a public fund if you need them. It doesn't mean that you can't sell what you produce to others, you absolutely can. What public ownership seeks to avoid is create a situation where people are required to sell their labour to someone who holds access to the means of production over them. It seeks to discourage rent-seeking and middle-men, people whose main business model consists of finding a road to put a toll booth on. This is in direct opposition to neoliberal capitalism, which encourages rent-seeking.
And this is why I describe myself as a social democrat, but do continue.
No, the Soviet Union did not try that, neither did China. Both of those societies were built around a revolution led by a vanguard party; the idea was that this group of enlightened people would lead the populace through the various stages of the marxist revolution into actual communism, but guess what? They never did. Instead, they turned into oligarchies organized along lines of assumed ideological purity (which, come to think of it, is oddly similar to a theocracy....)
I would add to that that it also requires that workers are empowered and confident in their ability to have their demands and requirements taken seriously.
See, I think your little simile isn't very well-constructed, mostly because it misrepresents almost everyone in it. The capitalist would actually say something along the lines of "This is my cow. I am the only one who has any right to its body, its labour or the milk it produces, but I will sell you a limited-time license to look at it standing on the field for a buck. You want a liter of milk? Well, that'll be a tenner." The communist would (after shooting the capitalist) say "Right then, this is our cow now. Everyone can look at it for free, but we'll have to work out how to divide up the milk amongst us and set up some sort of feeding schedule; so if everyone who needs milk could form an orderly queue over there and everyone who has hay could form up over there, that'll be great". I, as a social democrat, would say to the Capitalist "Okay, nice offer, but we both know that your prices are ridiculous. So why don't we agree to something where anyone can still afford the milk but you can still make a bit of profit and we do not shoot you."
The part where we seemingly differ is that I believe that this is something that, ultimately, needs to be backed by a threat of force. We can't rely on capitalists being reasonable or non-greedy, so we need to make the cost of greed high enough that people who can make rational decisions are discouraged from engaging in it too much.
The stigma that word has in american political discussions is something I consider silly and will poke at whenever I can. After all, it has such a nice triggering effect on people, you can get people like TFLY and Imaginos to make such magnificent fools of themselves, it's quite a sight to see. |
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Daryl
Posts: 3595
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Economic theory and its application can be endlessly complex, but interesting.
One that those from the right often quote is that "Governments can't produce wealth, just spend it". Historically in many countries governments have provided the original infrastructure, like railways, telecommunications, ports, and such, even in some cases primary industry. Sensible governments then eventually sell these QUANGOES (Quasi autonomous government enterprises), and reinvest the capital in new "greenfield" enterprises. However in the meantime, they have actually produced stuff and paid a profit back to the tax payers. As to efficiencies, it does appear that in some cases (telecommunications), capitalism is the way to go but in others (health) government is better. Defence is an interesting one, in that in the US private enterprise and government have got so far into bed together, that there seems to be no demarcation anymore. Back to the original topic. The world is rushing to develop a vaccine for covid-19, and the sooner the better, however many are hoping that it isn't a US company that gets the first successful one out, as they will price gouge. |
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Arol
Posts: 471
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Kudos sir, for coming up with the one word that so aptly describes his diatribe. I had intended to answer his question, and as so often it would have been too wordy:. “…because you are an unmitigated bigot &%/#”…etc” Had to look for the meaning, and found it right here on in this forum: A 'murikun is someone who instantly resorts to insults when errors in their logic fail! Arne |
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Arol
Posts: 471
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It staggers the imagination, that here at a time when not just the United States but the whole world face an unprecedented crisis, that instead of calling for international co-operation Trump is doing the opposite and repeatedly introducing divisiveness. A crisis where even one of President Trump’s staunches proponents on forum has written:
It has often been stated that the struggle against Covid-19 can be likened to a war. So what does Trump do, he wants to cut off the legs of the one international health organization (The World Health Organization!) that can spearhead the fight against the pandemic. This same organization that since the very start of the epidemic in Wuhan, has been trying to alert the world community to the consequences of inaction. Again liking it to a war, it’s akin to one of the members of an alliance suddenly saying it won’t be a part anymore! |
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WeberFan
Posts: 374
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Emphasis mine. ... Because other countries will DEMAND that the company in the US that created it - using almost entirely their own capital - give it to them for free. Regardless of what it cost to develop it. Out of the goodness of their heart. Yes, there is SOME government investment/money being applied to the problem. But NOT full funding. At least in the US. I can't speak to what other countries are doing because I haven't done any research into it. IMHO the company that produces it should open their books and fully disclose the full cost to do all the research, development, and production. No ifs, ands, or buts. Then, determine the full number of people who will need to get a vaccination. Divide A by B and derive the true cost per dose. Allow for a nominal profit (note the use of the word "Nominal"). Do NOT allow patent coverage - if the vaccine is needed in the future, then others can make it and charge what they want (zero to whatever). The SAME price per dose is paid by EVERYONE. No matter where they are in the world. Some will pay "More than they're comfortable with" and some will pay less. Some will think the price is too high and won't pay... Too bad... Wailing and gnashing of teeth for sure "Ohhh It's not fair!!!" Tough. You're a member of the human race, so you pay the same amount as any other person who is a member of the human race. And now I open up the floor for the inevitable trolling. |
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clancy688
Posts: 557
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Ehh... Damn, you discovered our dark secret. Hats off to you, Sir. You're completely right, we do underreport our deaths to feel superior. Because feeling superior is all what matters in these dark times. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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TFLYTSNBN
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There you go being a moron again. Yes the testing rate in the US is half the testing rate in Germany. However; your testing rate is only a bit more than 1% of your population. Both countries have high enough testing rates to be reasonably confident in their infection rate. Your suggestion that the US is grossly understating our infection rate because we aren't testing enough is absurd. You are the hate mongering bigot. |
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TFLYTSNBN
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Maybe Australia has such a low infection rate because the Chinavirus was unleashed when it was Summer in the Southern hemisphere? You do realize that the normal Flu is seasonal because it is more infectious in the damp and cold? Don't worry about a greedy US company developing a vaccine for the Coronavirus then price gouging for it. I have no doubt that the Chinese already had a vaccine developed even before the virus was unleashed. They are just waiting for it to mill more people so that you will pay whatever they demand for it. In the mean time, let me remind you of how China enabled the pandemic: https://www.axios.com/timeline-the-earl ... 5faab.html In spite of the truth, you Eurotrash will just blame Trump and 'Mericuns." Last edited by TFLYTSNBN on Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The E
Posts: 2704
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Well, no. See, the thing is, because we have a functional health care system that actively encourages being used, anyone who exhibited serious enough symptoms or symptoms close to covid got tested, which in turn means that the number of people who die to covid without being tested in some way is going to be relatively small. Therefore, the "Total deaths" column in the current data set is reasonably accurate to what the actual death toll is. Secondly, we've been testing harder for longer. The disease has officially been in Germany and the US for about the same amount of time, plus or minus a few days, but because we were doing more testing earlier, we were able to get a more accurate picture of the situation and isolate people earlier. It seems likely to me that the number of undetected cases, and more importantly undetected deaths, in the US is much higher than it is in Germany because of those factors. And that leaves aside the completely unavoidable fact that, on a per capita basis, the number of cases that ended in death is almost twice in the US what it is in Germany. So, in conclusion: Because of mismanagement and structural issues, the raw numbers for the US are not as reliable as european data is. And let's not lose sight of one very important metric here: Right now, 2349 people in Germany have died to COVID-19, over the entire course of this pandemic thus far; at this point in time, we expect about 150 people to die each day. In the US, going by the raw data which, as pointed out above, is not really reliable, 7 times as many people have died. Right now, over 1000 people are expected to die today. Your health care system, which some people still, unfathomly, believe to be the best in the world, is failing at its main reason for existance. Please, TFLY, explain to me how twice the number of deaths per capita, almost 7 times the number of deaths total, shows how you are actually doing great in comparison. |
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