Raoul/Katherine Inheritance

munroburton wrote:Yes, it is unfair. That's just how primogeniture(or, depending how you view it, accidental pregnancies) works. The founders of the Star Kingdom clearly did not want their legacies to be divided and diluted among countless heirs like it was in the Holy Roman Empire.

It isn't about the law either.

Hamish and Emily were married for what? 60+ years? Hamish and Honor? Less than 5? But it's going to be Honor's child that inherits all the lands and titles.

Emily and Katherine got supplanted by Honor and Raoul.

That's what I think is unfair.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

MC1560 wrote:Example?

My usually-excellent memory is failing me at the moment, so I don't remember the context of the event well enough to find textev without electronic copies I don't have. I can give two concrete examples where the cadet line has at minimum a "Lord" attached to their name. The first is Hamish himself, who is Lord Alexander" during most of House of Steel. His father is still Earl White Haven. Upon his passing, Hamish assumes the Earldom and Willie becomes Lord Alexander. I don't recall if there's an entire separate title attached to that but it is enough to earn them both seats in the Lords.

The other is Lord Pavel Young who similarly gave his brother a hand-me-down title upon their father's death.

I know there's an actual example of an earl passing the title when assuming a dukedom but I can't for the life of me place who it was. Can anyone help?

I think you've conflated cadet seats with courtesy titles. When someone holds two(or more) titles in their own right, their heir is permitted to use the second-highest title as a courtesy. It doesn't mean that heir is actually an Earl; just the child of a Duke who is also an Earl. This is usually only done with the heir apparent(one who cannot be displaced by the birth of another - eg, the firstborn child).

The cadet seat is filled by the immediate heir, whether it's the heir presumptive or heir apparent. When Raoul was born, he displaced Willie Alexander from this position. To complicate matters, not all Manticoran peerages have cadet seats(though a majority does).

The example you're probably thinking of could be Anthony Agursky, whose father was an unknown Earl who had "passed" the Barony of Novaya Tyumen to him upon inheriting that earldom. In reality, that father had been using "Baron Novaya Tyumen" as a courtesy, a privilege transferred to his son when he actually inherited both titles from Anthony's grandparent.

Hm, unless Anthony's father was where both titles converged, as will happen to Raoul eventually. His firstborn will be known as "Earl/Countess White Haven" in a similar fashion to the Agursky titles.

MC1560 wrote:

munroburton wrote:Yes, it is unfair. That's just how primogeniture(or, depending how you view it, accidental pregnancies) works. The founders of the Star Kingdom clearly did not want their legacies to be divided and diluted among countless heirs like it was in the Holy Roman Empire.

It isn't about the law either.

Hamish and Emily were married for what? 60+ years? Hamish and Honor? Less than 5? But it's going to be Honor's child that inherits all the lands and titles.

Emily and Katherine got supplanted by Honor and Raoul.

Well, consider that Katherine wouldn't have been conceived at all if not for Raoul unexpectedly showing up and stirring up things.

But yes. Emily&Katherine got the short end of the stick, I won't argue with that.

munroburton wrote:I think you've conflated cadet seats with courtesy titles. When someone holds two(or more) titles in their own right, their heir is permitted to use the second-highest title as a courtesy. It doesn't mean that heir is actually an Earl; just the child of a Duke who is also an Earl. This is usually only done with the heir apparent(one who cannot be displaced by the birth of another - eg, the firstborn child).

The cadet seat is filled by the immediate heir, whether it's the heir presumptive or heir apparent. When Raoul was born, he displaced Willie Alexander from this position. To complicate matters, not all Manticoran peerages have cadet seats(though a majority does).

The example you're probably thinking of could be Anthony Agursky, whose father was an unknown Earl who had "passed" the Barony of Novaya Tyumen to him upon inheriting that earldom. In reality, that father had been using "Baron Novaya Tyumen" as a courtesy, a privilege transferred to his son when he actually inherited both titles from Anthony's grandparent.

Hm, unless Anthony's father was where both titles converged, as will happen to Raoul eventually. His firstborn will be known as "Earl/Countess White Haven" in a similar fashion to the Agursky titles.

I agree. It's a paper title.

munroburton wrote:Well, consider that Katherine wouldn't have been conceived at all if not for Raoul unexpectedly showing up and stirring up things.

There's good and bad to that. Good: She was born. Bad: 60+ years of marriage and her parents only had her in reaction to Honor's pregnancy and not wanting the poor cripple to feel bad about it.

Erls wrote:I would think the following would occur:

As well raised children of Honor and Hamish, Raoul and Katherine may have some sibling rivalries but also will get along and care for each other.

Raoul will then, once reaching the age of majority, irrevocably relinquish his claim to the White Haven title and lands except in the case of Katherine dying before him without heirs of her body, allowing the title to revert to his sister, Katherine. At that point in time, in recognition of the long and exemplary service given to the Crown by the current Earl White Haven, the Earldom will be elevated to a Dukedom.

This will result, following the deaths of Honor and Hamish, in:

His Grace, Steadholder Harrington, Duke Harrington (Raoul); and
Her Grace, Duchess White Haven (Katherine).

That sounds really boring to me.

This family is perfectly set up for conflict.

munroburton wrote:I think you've conflated cadet seats with courtesy titles. When someone holds two(or more) titles in their own right, their heir is permitted to use the second-highest title as a courtesy. It doesn't mean that heir is actually an Earl; just the child of a Duke who is also an Earl. This is usually only done with the heir apparent(one who cannot be displaced by the birth of another - eg, the firstborn child).

The cadet seat is filled by the immediate heir, whether it's the heir presumptive or heir apparent. When Raoul was born, he displaced Willie Alexander from this position. To complicate matters, not all Manticoran peerages have cadet seats(though a majority does).

You may well be correct here, but then even the "courtesy" title was enough to get Willie a seat in the Lords. And if that title did pass to Raoul when he was born, well, it was conveniently prescient of Elizabeth to create a new peerage for Willie when became PM.

The example you're probably thinking of could be Anthony Agursky, whose father was an unknown Earl who had "passed" the Barony of Novaya Tyumen to him upon inheriting that earldom. In reality, that father had been using "Baron Novaya Tyumen" as a courtesy, a privilege transferred to his son when he actually inherited both titles from Anthony's grandparent.

Hm, unless Anthony's father was where both titles converged, as will happen to Raoul eventually. His firstborn will be known as "Earl/Countess White Haven" in a similar fashion to the Agursky titles.

That's probably it. That was going to bug me if I couldn't get an answer.

MC1560 wrote:

munroburton wrote:Well, consider that Katherine wouldn't have been conceived at all if not for Raoul unexpectedly showing up and stirring up things.

There's good and bad to that. Good: She was born. Bad: 60+ years of marriage and her parents only had her in reaction to Honor's pregnancy and not wanting the poor cripple to feel bad about it.

Emily didn't have children after her accident because she didn't want to transmit the non-regeneration gene to her children it was only after Allison promised her that any child conceived with her assistance would be able to regenerate that she agreed to go ahead with Katherine .

Fox2! wrote:Emily didn't have children after her accident because she didn't want to transmit the non-regeneration gene to her children it was only after Allison promised her that any child conceived with her assistance would be able to regenerate that she agreed to go ahead with Katherine .

I forget, but is this a new revolutionary technique that only Allison can do or is it long widely available from any fully-trained geneticist?

If it's the latter, then Emily/Hamish spent 40 years knowing they required an heir, but either lacked the willpower to solve their problem or were being stupid.

If I wanted a kid but didn't want to pass on my genetic problems, I'd probably go talk to a geneticist. It's simple!

Ok, so I went back and did a bit of reading. While I couldn't find 100% textual proof of this, it appears that RFC has borrowed quite heavily from English Civil Law, specifically English Civil Law as it existed around the time of the American Revolution and Napoleonic Wars.

So, that would mean that the Manticore Aristocracy are Titles of Nobility held in Fee Tail. Fee Tail existed in England until the 1920s, and while it has existed in parts of America (and, I presume, Canada), it's practice in the colonies was never widespread and the legal systems over here have long interpreted property deeds as being Fee Simple, and not Fee Tail. An Estate in Fee Tail basically means that the property, by law, cannot be divided, sold, or bequeathed by the current owner of the property. Instead, the property automatically will transfer, in full, to the next legal heir upon the death of the current owner. This was often done by one who amassed a large amount of property to prevent his heirs from selling it off or trading it away, perhaps giving some to a favored mistress or a well-liked bastard child. Basically, it can be thought of in modern (American) terms as the current owner having a Life Estate in the property, with the heir having a Fee Simple Vested Interest. Upon the death of the owner, the heir's interest converts from a Fee Simple Interest into a Life Estate, with the next in line assuming a Fee Simple Vested Interest.

So, if this is in fact the structure of the White Haven Estate (and it seems likely the original colonists all created Fee Tail Estates), then Honor and Hamish have no say whatsoever in who receives White Haven. Raoul, however, could renounce his title, like the Countess of Tor did, meaning White Haven would automatically pass to Katherine.

Also, a note regarding the money of Honor and Hamish. Honor and Hamish are free to bequeath their fortune however they see fit. It can be split 50/50, it can be split 5/5/90 (90 given away), it can be gifted to the Crown. However, that gift can only be comprised of what existed in the Estate at the moment in time when the last to die of Honor and Hamish do, indeed, die. That means that they cannot give away that which is not in the Estate, which would be future income. At the moment of death, the titles and estates held by them pass. Every bit of income generated after that must go to the new holder of the estate and title, and not to the estate of Honor and Hamish.

That would be why it was not uncommon for the child of an aristocrat who was not the heir to receive a larger cash inheritance than the heir did. The heir would receive the estate and all income that flowed through the estate, while all the other children would have no claim under law to that income.

Also, yes, I am an attorney who did very well in 1L Property Law.

Note, while I may be an attorney this post, despite discussing legal issues, should in no way be construed as legal advice. None of you who read this are my clients and should not rely upon anything stated above in a court of law.

MC1560 wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Emily didn't have children after her accident because she didn't want to transmit the non-regeneration gene to her children it was only after Allison promised her that any child conceived with her assistance would be able to regenerate that she agreed to go ahead with Katherine .

I forget, but is this a new revolutionary technique that only Allison can do or is it long widely available from any fully-trained geneticist?

If it's the latter, then Emily/Hamish spent 40 years knowing they required an heir, but either lacked the willpower to solve their problem or were being stupid.

If I wanted a kid but didn't want to pass on my genetic problems, I'd probably go talk to a geneticist. It's simple!

On the topic of the heir, Hamish & Emily actually haven't been avoiding their own heir for nearly that long. Emily's accident was while Hamish was still only the heir primus, and happened in 1862. Hamish only inherited the White Haven title just prior to HotQ circa 1902, and his younger brother William became heir apparent to the Earldom.

Honor didn't even begin to enter the White Haven family picture until 1915, post Cerberus and the rough start of the High Ridge administration. Emily and Honor didn't have their first children born until 1921, which is 20 years after he inhereited the title.


William Alexander didn't have his own title until somewhere after High Ridge was thrown in jail, somewhere around 1919 and becoming Baron Grantville. Until 1921 he also remained as Heir Apparent to White Haven, because he is still Hamish's younger brother and until the births of Raoul and Katherine, had the next best claim on the Earldom (Father was the previous Earl, and his older brother is the current one).


On the subject of Emily's genes and her accident, I think AT THE TIME of the accident they weren't quite as good at the genetic stuff. But like everything else concerning Manticoran technology, they progressed at a very rapid pace, however I don't think it would have mattered.

Keep in mind, Emily was still recoiling from going from being able to dance and move on her own to simply coming to grips with the accident effectively ending her entire life except the spark of life itself. Plus she actually overheard (or at least read the body language) and knows her own Mother wanted her to be allowed to die, rather than Hamish 'selfishly' keeping her alive all those years. That undoubtedly left massive mental scarring, and Emily even admitted to Allison the very subject of having children, at any time since the accident had become verboten, and Hamish never once pressed the subject.


And so for 40 years, Emily & Hamish never actually discussed the topic of children, both before and after he inhereited the Earldom. If Hamish had ever shuffled off, or more likely died in fleet combat, William would have immediately become Earl White Haven, and has a wife and children already so the White Haven title had it's succession in place, just through Willie's family rather than Hamish.

Precedent on that is clear, based on both the North Hollow precedent (Pavel inherits, dies to Honor, younger brother Stefan inherits) and the Protectorship of Grayson. Benjamin was the eldest brother and became Sword & Protector, his younger brother Michael spends years thinking he's heir and thanks to Manticoran prolong REALLY became to expect that to eventually happen, and then Benjamin finally manages a male child and Michael is suddenly no longer even in the running as heir.

MC1560 wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Emily didn't have children after her accident because she didn't want to transmit the non-regeneration gene to her children it was only after Allison promised her that any child conceived with her assistance would be able to regenerate that she agreed to go ahead with Katherine .

I forget, but is this a new revolutionary technique that only Allison can do or is it long widely available from any fully-trained geneticist?

If it's the latter, then Emily/Hamish spent 40 years knowing they required an heir, but either lacked the willpower to solve their problem or were being stupid.

If I wanted a kid but didn't want to pass on my genetic problems, I'd probably go talk to a geneticist. It's simple!

They had heirs, just not heirs of their body. White Haven could have passed down through William Alexander and his children. So they hardly "required an heir".

I get the impression that while Allison had taken a particular interest in the genetic basis of incompatibility with regeneration (thanks the Honor having it, and slowly getting pieces shot off her) that she was hardly the only geneticist who could have rigged the scales against it when performing an in vitro fertilization. And she definitely wasn't the only one able to carry out a gene scan of a zygote to ensure one bearing that genetic trait wasn't transferred to a uterine replicator.

What she was was the only such person with the personal ties, and general busy-bodyness, to force the awareness of the availability of such techniques on the still somewhat traumatized Emily. Emily was so traumatized by what happened to her than 40 years later she wasn't even really able to articulate why she'd instinctively shied away from having children. So she certainly wasn't ready or able to identify what terrified her and reach out to specialists to find out if her concerns could be mitigated.