Do we actually need SD(P)s?

Loren Pechtel wrote:There was almost no reason for missile pods. Before the coming of the laser head the missile defenses of wallers were considerably more effective than the missiles. Missiles posed a threat to smaller craft but were basically harassment to a waller. If you went with pods and your opponent increased their point defense to match they would have the superior ship.

That's the failure of imagination part. You are not talking about a 10% increase in point defenses, you need orders of magnitude increases. This isn't a field upgrade. This is a design a new class and sacrifice a lot to get those CMs and PDLCs/grav cannon once you manage to convince the leadership that this is a real threat. Based on the text, this is not an easy task for most Honorverse navies.

A single penetrating 20MT CA boomer seriously damaged a BC. As in destroyed 50% of the weapons and sensors. And capital ship warheads were not the 20MT of Fearless, they were gigaton range weapons. Once you saturate the defenses, which is pretty trivial to do against an old-school ship, Bad Things will happen to it.

So it's the kind of thing that takes 20-30+ years to adjust to. Assuming you don't get steamrolled by the guys with the pod ships as you learn how the monster works.

cthia wrote:
Let's say SD(P)s are phased out. What would be done with the extra space, back to being more battle hardened? And, this has probably been covered, aren't podnaughts built much faster?

Yeah, Podnaught are built faster because there is less to build - massive voids don't require that much construction time. turning an SD into0 something else would be difficult. the hull over the pod bay is covered by sensors, control arrays and smaller weapons emplacements that don't impinge deeply into the hull - like PDLCs and CM launchers - adding back in a broadside Graser mount, missile tube or LAC bay in the back 1/2 of a SD(p) will require massive re-work - more time than if it was built that way most likely.

The only reasonable thing you can change a podnaught into is carrying something that is bulky, and can be removed slowly from the back of the ship. Hauling LACS wouldn't be efficient as the bay doors will only allow 1 to leave or dock at a time, and the internal bay isn't THAT large to allow separate LAC bays internally.

Theemile wrote:Going back to AAC. Text says the ONI data is for the "Latest Havenite Podnaught class" and the RHN Conquete, Honor's target in Giscard's trapping force, is a Temeraire class ship.

Giscard fires 11 salvos initially, each with 6 rolls of 6 pods from each of his 6 ships. - so 396 pods per ship . Seeing the Manticorian ability to shrug this level of firepower off off, he fires a salvo of 1080 pods - or 180 pods for each of his 6 ships. He then fires another "Stupendous" salvo, then loses range on Honor with nearly dry magazines.

Assuming this 13th salvo is the same size as the 12th , he had fired 756 pods per ship. Even if the salvo was only the size of the first 11 (then why "second stupendous missile wave"), each ship had a minimum of 602 pods.

So a Temeraire carried somewhere between 20-50% more than a Medusa, and 60-75% of an Invictus.

You're right, I missed that second mass salvo.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

Theemile wrote:Going back to AAC. Text says the ONI data is for the "Latest Havenite Podnaught class" and the RHN Conquete, Honor's target in Giscard's trapping force, is a Temeraire class ship.

Giscard fires 11 salvos initially, each with 6 rolls of 6 pods from each of his 6 ships. - so 396 pods per ship . Seeing the Manticorian ability to shrug this level of firepower off off, he fires a salvo of 1080 pods - or 180 pods for each of his 6 ships. He then fires another "Stupendous" salvo, then loses range on Honor with nearly dry magazines.

Assuming this 13th salvo is the same size as the 12th , he had fired 756 pods per ship. Even if the salvo was only the size of the first 11 (then why "second stupendous missile wave"), each ship had a minimum of 602 pods.

So a Temeraire carried somewhere between 20-50% more than a Medusa, and 60-75% of an Invictus.

You're right, I missed that second mass salvo.

All the text say they shot themselves "Almost dry" - what would you hold back for contingencies? - we can assume it is at least 6 pods, but I'm thinking 2-3 pod rolls.

cthia wrote:That is excellent work Theemile, thanks for that. Who says I needed Jayne.

Not that it is likely to do them any good unless they solve their range disadvantage, but the SLN can certainly develop their own podlayers. IIRC, they still don't have laserheads.

Nope, you're not recalling correctly.

SLN ships carry laser head missiles. And the Cataphracts that the MAlign gave them also carry laser heads.


What you're probably remembering is that the SLN capital ship designs are so old that their armor and defenses weren't originally designed with the threat of laserheads in mind. They've made various updates and upgrades, but unlike Manticore, Haven, and the Andies the SLN hasn't gone back to the drawing board and designed a new capital ship class optimized for resisting the laserhead threat (much less one designed around the tsunamis of them that pod based combat permits)

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:That is excellent work Theemile, thanks for that. Who says I needed Jayne.

Not that it is likely to do them any good unless they solve their range disadvantage, but the SLN can certainly develop their own podlayers. IIRC, they still don't have laserheads.

Nope, you're not recalling correctly.

SLN ships carry laser head missiles. And the Cataphracts that the MAlign gave them also carry laser heads.


What you're probably remembering is that the SLN capital ship designs are so old that their armor and defenses weren't originally designed with the threat of laserheads in mind. They've made various updates and upgrades, but unlike Manticore, Haven, and the Andies the SLN hasn't gone back to the drawing board and designed a new capital ship class optimized for resisting the laserhead threat (much less one designed around the tsunamis of them that pod based combat permits)

Thanks Jonathan. I knew there was a good chance I didn't remember it correctly. You're probably right about what muddled my mind. Perhaps it was a combination of that and their laserheads not being as effective, or their oldstyle point defense? I dunno.

Anyway, it looks like the SL won't have as much trouble with their own designs as I thought. With what they have now, I'm going to assume their total pod loadout would be comparable to Haven's early designs?

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:
Let's say SD(P)s are phased out. What would be done with the extra space, back to being more battle hardened? And, this has probably been covered, aren't podnaughts built much faster?

Yeah, Podnaught are built faster because there is less to build - massive voids don't require that much construction time. turning an SD into0 something else would be difficult. the hull over the pod bay is covered by sensors, control arrays and smaller weapons emplacements that don't impinge deeply into the hull - like PDLCs and CM launchers - adding back in a broadside Graser mount, missile tube or LAC bay in the back 1/2 of a SD(p) will require massive re-work - more time than if it was built that way most likely.

The only reasonable thing you can change a podnaught into is carrying something that is bulky, and can be removed slowly from the back of the ship. Hauling LACS wouldn't be efficient as the bay doors will only allow 1 to leave or dock at a time, and the internal bay isn't THAT large to allow separate LAC bays internally.

Well, I was correct about why they would be built faster.

Tactically, I'm thinking they could be used in the same capacity as the David-Taylor class fast support vessels, missile colliers. Where engaging is the last resort.

cthia wrote:Well, I was correct about why they would be built faster.

Tactically, I'm thinking they could be used in the same capacity as the David-Taylor class fast support vessels, missile colliers. Where engaging is the last resort.

Well they can carry Pods like the Taylors, but...

The Taylors are the inverse of a Podnaught - they have 4 modules that mount in cavities on the outside of the ship, and 4 spines that each have the ability to mount an external pod "sled" on their edge (I think of the sled like a giant "stripper clip" from an old rifle with a row of pods on it - only it can be self propelled. ) Everything is accessible for the outside for quick access and changeout.

In a Podnaught, You could probably cut off a portion of a pod bay for another purpose - it has been done before (Royal Living space, Keyhole computing module, etc) but it is an internal space, any access needs to be through ship corridors or through the pod doors. If you wanted to modify a Podnaught so it had the ability to lift a Marine Battalion you could do this at the semi-permanent cost of part of the pod load. But in the end, you are gelding a warship's main weapon.

Thanks for a bit more info on the Taylors. Are they too hammerhead designs that simply look a bit odd? Can't locate any pics of them.

cthia wrote:Thanks for a bit more info on the Taylors. Are they too hammerhead designs that simply look a bit odd? Can't locate any pics of them.

no pics, just a description. They have hammherheads, on both ends. Picture a ship about the size of a Battleship. Leave the first 1/2 alone. Leave the aft hammerhead alone. The back 1/2 of the broadside is made up of a center spine with thin straight partitions straight up and down, starboard and port, to leave the 4 quadrants open for the modules.

The front 1/2 has 8 LAC bays, and a CL's weapons suite. (While not specified, probably somewhere between the weapons fit of an Kammerling and an Avalon, but given it's size could mount the mk 16 instead of the LERM.)