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Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns

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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:39 pm

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Non-violent criminals, some of them, can make life a nightmare for innocent people.
They aren't all "Minor evils" :(

you often find there's a surprisingly small number of criminals who commit a large percentage of non-violent crimes that really badly affect victims.
stuff them, 15 years off the street would save a lot of distress
hoodwinking some easily conned old person out of their life savings is NOT a joke

However, some criminals though ARE just troubled, screwed up whatever and can be reached
it's not an easy thing
but people should always be aware, some troublemakers are just SCUM, you CANNOT change them


I see no reason why someone who commits:
violent or sadistic rape
sadistic or callous murder
mass murder
or a few other extremes
should ever be let out jail.

Except...if it's found they were not guilty
that's one major problem with execution
the more heinous the crime, the more likely an innocent person gets FITTED UP for it
we know about that all too well on this side of the Pond and it has been VERY common in America as research has shown :(

However, a scumbag shot into bloody rags, or a taser jammed into their "meat and two veg" by a victim?
that's just Darwinism in action! :mrgreen:
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by SilverbladeTE   » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:54 pm

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Imaginos1892

Racism IS a massive problem in America
so is short sighted, partisanship, greed and stupidity
so, you get a lot of problems in society *shrug*

race creed or colour shouldn't matter if someone attacks an innocent person
At that point, "Rule .303" should apply

afterwards...when the "authorities" get involved, then we can get problems. Sigh.


I really am NOT happy about the racist crap MY relatives have suffered in the USA, here I'd have kicked the b******s teeth in
my folks are extremely well educated, brilliant, earned scholarships to the best universities
and some white TRASH gives them a mouth full?!
Oh I don't bloody think so! :evil:
meh
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Imaginos1892   » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:10 pm

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Annachie wrote:Personally, every sale, including private, should go through a licensed dealer. If only to enforce the paperwork.

Trouble is, most criminals don't even think about a gun store, or paperwork. They just go downtown, hand Pedro the Pusher a few hundred bucks, and get a gun. You can't stop Pedro from selling illegal drugs, what makes you believe you can stop him from selling illegal guns?

Such a law would only punish the innocent.

SilverbladeTE wrote:Racism IS a massive problem in America

I'll grant you, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are a couple of virulent racists, but don't judge us all by their example.

Here in America we have equal rights for assholes. We've found that it doesn't work any other way. Either the assholes have rights, or nobody does. Fortunately, there aren't very many of them, but they make up for their lack of numbers by being loud and obnoxious.

SilverbladeTE wrote:race creed or colour shouldn't matter if someone attacks an innocent person

Agreed! But neither should such acts be excused on the basis of race.
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You can't have the government take away the freedom of only the people you hate.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by doug941   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:32 am

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I'm not going to make a statement about gun ownership, either pro or con. I will make a statement about authorities notifying the NCIS and their sometimes failure to do so. The shooter at the Sutherland Springs Texas church on Nov 5, 2017 did not have his conviction of domestic assault reported and therefore was able to "legally" buy both firearms and ammo. The agency that failed to report his conviction? The US Air Force after his court martial. If even the Federal government can't get its act straight, don't expect every local agency to either.

As an aside, roughly two thirds of US gun deaths each year are suicides and the vast majority of the rest are criminal on criminal shootings.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Annachie   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:29 am

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
Annachie wrote:Personally, every sale, including private, should go through a licensed dealer. If only to enforce the paperwork.

Trouble is, most criminals don't even think about a gun store, or paperwork. They just go downtown, hand Pedro the Pusher a few hundred bucks, and get a gun. You can't stop Pedro from selling illegal drugs, what makes you believe you can stop him from selling illegal guns?

Such a law would only punish the innocent.


So you're advocating no laws then? By your logic no laws should exist because criminals will only break them.
So that means we empty the jails, since the laws tht keep people in there don't matter. How about those asylum seekers that the US has (Illegally) jailed. Since no laws actually matter they should be released to go where they like.

Drunk Freddy should be allowed to drive? Mick the pedo teacher to teach your children, after all, according to you, laws don't matter.

That druggie breaking into your home, well he's not breaking a law is he, according to you. Then again, neither is the idiot who decides to take pot shots at passerby's.

How about the guy cooking your food at a takeaway. Health and safety rules only make the job harder for those who follow them, so according to you fuck them off too.

Car road worthyness. Same really. Registration, yep gone.


Seriously, Imaginos, take 10 minutes and seriously think about the stuff that you spout. And to be blunt, if doing a minimal amount of firearm based paperwork is too hard for you then you are the type of person who shouldn't be allowed a gun.
Seriously, go ask your father if he'd have allowed you a gun as a child if you refused to maintain it. Hell, would you allow your own children one if they refused to maintain it. Because that is what you are advocating here, just with the paperwork.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by n7axw   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:04 am

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I think that gun owners should have to carry a license. Passing it would mean having demonstrated an ability to safely handle a gun. It would also mean verification of having passed the requisite background checks establishing that said gun owner is legally entitled to do so.

I get a driver's license to drive my car... why not the same for a gun??

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by Imaginos1892   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:59 am

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n7axw wrote:I get a driver's license to drive my car... why not the same for a gun??

Which Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees that your right to drive a car shall not be infringed? I can't find it.

You would hand politicians and bureaucrats the power to arbitrarily deny gun licenses to 'the wrong people' — those who do or say or believe in the 'wrong' things. You can't be naive enough to believe that wouldn't happen. Everything the government does becomes political.

Twenty-five years ago everybody was required to register 'assault rifles' in California. Very few did so, after a number of cases were brought to light of people's registrations being arbitrarily denied. And, since they had just informed the government that they had 'unregistered assault rifles'…

Just a few years ago, IRS audits were used as political weapons.

Annachie wrote:So you're advocating no laws then?

(a lot of other useless drivel omitted)

Only an idiot would believe any of that.

I am opposed to laws that punish people who have never committed a crime, and are impossible to enforce. Buying or selling a gun is not a crime, and should not be. Robbery and murder ARE crimes, regardless of whether a gun is used. Can you not understand the difference?

It is already illegal for a felon to possess a gun; what need is there to make a felon buying a gun into a separate crime? Knowingly selling a gun to a felon is a crime — but the government has to PROVE 'knowingly' which is highly subjective.
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There is no shortage of people convinced that they can create the perfect world. Trouble is, they always start out by fucking up this one.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by n7axw   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:29 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
n7axw wrote:I get a driver's license to drive my car... why not the same for a gun??

Which Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees that your right to drive a car shall not be infringed? I can't find it.

You would hand politicians and bureaucrats the power to arbitrarily deny gun licenses to 'the wrong people' — those who do or say or believe in the 'wrong' things. You can't be naive enough to believe that wouldn't happen. Everything the government does becomes political.

Twenty-five years ago everybody was required to register 'assault rifles' in California. Very few did so, after a number of cases were brought to light of people's registrations being arbitrarily denied. And, since they had just informed the government that they had 'unregistered assault rifles'…

Just a few years ago, IRS audits were used as political weapons.

Annachie wrote:So you're advocating no laws then?

(a lot of other useless drivel omitted)

Only an idiot would make such claims.

I am advocating against laws that punish people who have never committed a crime, and are impossible to enforce. Buying or selling a gun is not a crime, and should not be. Robbery and murder ARE crimes, regardless of whether a gun is used. Can you not understand the difference?

It is already illegal for a felon to possess a gun; what need is there to make a felon buying a gun into a separate crime? Knowingly selling a gun to a felon is a crime — but the government has to PROVE 'knowingly' which is highly subjective.
———————————
There is no shortage of people convinced that they can create the perfect world. Trouble is, they always start out by fucking up this one.


The constitution is not a suicide pact. There are no rights that are absolute. Anton Scalia himself affirmed that it is the responsibility of government to pass laws necessary to provide for public safety. Where that line is to be drawn is a valid question for debate.

As for the argument that innocents would be punished, well, no. All that is being asked of them is to establish their credentials as law abiding citizens and people who are not mentally unbalanced. If you are not willing to do that, you shouldn't have access to a firearm.

As for the argument that gun licenses could be circumnavigated or faked, the same is also true of drivers licenses, yet I doubt that anyone would advocate doing away with drivers licenses. Finally It's an imperfect world. All we can do is our best.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by WeberFan   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:51 pm

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n7axw wrote:You are probably a bit extreme on this one. I understand your impulse, but can't follow you all the way...

It comes down to how to draw the line and civil rights for a**holes. As for the line, capital punishment for murder and rape. As for civil rights, if we are not scrupulous about civil rights for a**holes, the civil rights of everybody else is also at risk.

As for jails, reserve them for violent offenders. Release non-violent offenders who are a danger to no one. Deal with them by fines, house arrest, etc. Your prison population would really shrink. My impression is that a majority of inmates are nonviolent.

Don

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I'm not a "shades of gray" kind of guy. For me it's pretty cut and dried.

You commit a crime of violence - ANY crime of violence - and are in possession of a firearm, you get a death sentence. And that sentence gets carried out RIGHT BLOODY NOW!

If I had my way, media would be required as a condition of their license to carry the executions live during prime time. And those executions wouldn't be carried out in a way that eliminates "pain and suffering." They'd be carried out via electrocution, hanging, or firing squad. Make the consequences swift, sure, and obvious and you deter the undesired behavior. Make the consequences slow, uncertain, and hidden (as our criminal justice system does currently) and you do anything BUT deter the undesired behavior.
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Re: Only the Police and the Military Should Have Guns
Post by n7axw   » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:27 pm

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WeberFan wrote:
n7axw wrote:You are probably a bit extreme on this one. I understand your impulse, but can't follow you all the way...

It comes down to how to draw the line and civil rights for a**holes. As for the line, capital punishment for murder and rape. As for civil rights, if we are not scrupulous about civil rights for a**holes, the civil rights of everybody else is also at risk.

As for jails, reserve them for violent offenders. Release non-violent offenders who are a danger to no one. Deal with them by fines, house arrest, etc. Your prison population would really shrink. My impression is that a majority of inmates are nonviolent.

Don

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I'm not a "shades of gray" kind of guy. For me it's pretty cut and dried.

You commit a crime of violence - ANY crime of violence - and are in possession of a firearm, you get a death sentence. And that sentence gets carried out RIGHT BLOODY NOW!

If I had my way, media would be required as a condition of their license to carry the executions live during prime time. And those executions wouldn't be carried out in a way that eliminates "pain and suffering." They'd be carried out via electrocution, hanging, or firing squad. Make the consequences swift, sure, and obvious and you deter the undesired behavior. Make the consequences slow, uncertain, and hidden (as our criminal justice system does currently) and you do anything BUT deter the undesired behavior.


I admit that I am a "shades of gray" kind of guy. I constantly do nuance and ponder consequences. I not only want it done, but also done right.

But I am also a law and order guy. That means that the law should be enforced. But it also means that the Bill of Rights be carefully observed and the Constitution carried out so that our land continue to be a land of both liberty and justice.

In short our proposed solutions should do no harm.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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