Do we actually need SD(P)s?

SharkHunter wrote:So by text-ev as written the implication would have to be that the -Css have something like 4x the -B's bow arrays available in a ship whose fore and aft hammerheads don't seem to have increased enough in size to accommodate. Yes/no?

Though the -Cs did rearrange their armament, taking fuller advantage of the off-bore missile capabilities. Compared to the smaller -Bs each hammerhead on the -Cs deleted all missile (2) and CM CM (6) tubes, and 1 of the grasers (though then added on 3 lasers)
So, on the whole, that probably freed up a non-trivial amount of surface area for fire control.

Plus the extra 3 meters each of beam and draught should give a hammerhead cross section that's a bit over 9% larger.

Given all that something like a 4x increase in fire control doesn't seem utterly impossible.

tlb wrote:Let's try to cut down on the confusion. Here is the quote about the missiles used in Oyseter Bay (the next generation after the ones used against Ruzsak) from Mission of Honor, chapter 29:

In the meantime, they'd come up with Cataphract, a variant of their own based on taking the standard missile bodies for the SLN's new-generation anti-ship missiles and adding what amounted to a separate final stage carrying a standard laser head and a counter-missile 's drive system.

So this missile is a standard anti-ship missiles with an added drive from a CM that kicks in last.

Could the CM drive be in the front, outside of the sensor package? That would still put it the correct distance from an end, while giving it maximum separation from the initial drives.

But it is described as a separate stage, not just separate drive. That still makes me think that the initial stage, the modified normal anti-ship missile, drops away letting the CM powered separate final stage take the sensors and warhead the rest of the way to the target

Theemile wrote:AS for Spindle, each Sag-C has 128 missile links, allowing for a double, double broadside and 40% battle damage redundancy. The pods they were firing were Apollo pods with 8 shipkillers, with the Apollo Control Missile in relativistic control mode. so Each of the 12 Sag-Cs could control 128, 8 missile pods, or 12*8*128 - or 12,288 mk-23D missiles/salvo.

From HoS:

The Saganami-C is uncompromisingly optimized for missile combat, with a total of forty missile launchers for the new Mk16 DDM. The third-generation launchers and missile allow them to fire off-bore up to 180 degrees, launching a forty-missile salvo into any firing arc, and telemetry arrays have also been upgraded, allowing full control of up to three "stacked broadsides" in any aspect not blocked by the wedge. Additional control channels in the broadsides allow the class to handle large missile pod loads in addition to the shipboard launchers.

So a minimum of 120 channels in the hammerheads and potentially many more than that in the broadsides.

AS for countermissiles, I don't remember ever seeing them controlled by other platforms - coordinated - yes, but passing off control... no...

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that a keyhole could control CMs so long as the handoff was arranged prior to launch. Unfortunately all I have is dead tree versions of the texts so I don't have an efficient means of searching for exactly where that might have been said.

Certainly the CMs launched by the B's in Hypatia were being controlled by Phantom, as the B's were rolled to present their wedge to the incoming fire.

tlb wrote:Let's try to cut down on the confusion. Here is the quote about the missiles used in Oyseter Bay (the next generation after the ones used against Ruzsak) from Mission of Honor, chapter 29:

In the meantime, they'd come up with Cataphract, a variant of their own based on taking the standard missile bodies for the SLN's new-generation anti-ship missiles and adding what amounted to a separate final stage carrying a standard laser head and a counter-missile 's drive system.

So this missile is a standard anti-ship missiles with an added drive from a CM that kicks in last.

Could the CM drive be in the front, outside of the sensor package? That would still put it the correct distance from an end, while giving it maximum separation from the initial drives.

Jonathan_S wrote:But it is described as a separate stage, not just separate drive. That still makes me think that the initial stage, the modified normal anti-ship missile, drops away letting the CM powered separate final stage take the sensors and warhead the rest of the way to the target

That sounds perfectly reasonable. I found that you and others were having the same discussion about the Cataphract in 2016. At that time MaxxQ had not rendered one, although he had done the main RMN missiles on his DeviantArt pages. I wonder if he has more information?

Galactic Sapper wrote:

AS for countermissiles, I don't remember ever seeing them controlled by other platforms - coordinated - yes, but passing off control... no...

I believe it was mentioned somewhere that a keyhole could control CMs so long as the handoff was arranged prior to launch. Unfortunately all I have is dead tree versions of the texts so I don't have an efficient means of searching for exactly where that might have been said.

Certainly the CMs launched by the B's in Hypatia were being controlled by Phantom, as the B's were rolled to present their wedge to the incoming fire.

Since I do have the ebooks here on the computer I did a search. I might have been insufficiently imaginative in the keywords used but I only found a single instance talking about this - it was in House of Steel's entry on the Nike-class battlecruiser:

House of Steel wrote: In addition, the Keyhole platform can act as a “handoff” relay, allowing a Nike to coordinate offensive and defensive missile control for another ship while both keep their wedges to the threat.

So this confirms they can control another ship's CMs - but there's nothing here about how much prearrangement that takes.

--snipping--

Jonathan_S wrote:Since I do have the ebooks here on the computer I did a search. I might have been insufficiently imaginative in the keywords used but I only found a single instance talking about this - it was in House of Steel's entry on the Nike-class battlecruiser:

House of Steel wrote: In addition, the Keyhole platform can act as a “handoff” relay, allowing a Nike to coordinate offensive and defensive missile control for another ship while both keep their wedges to the threat.

So this confirms they can control another ship's CMs - but there's nothing here about how much prearrangement that takes.

Thought so but honestly didn't remember. Totally awesome posts about the hammerhead reconfigurations that show the Sag-Cs channel levels went up so much, which IIRC also accounts for the Roland(s) missile control capabilities as well, methinks. Seems like the -C's are kind of the current "pound for pound" champions, that is for sure. Especially when the dynamic duo out at Bolthole finish their missile controller upgrades also known as "keyhole light".

So the initial stage, the modified normal anti-ship missile, drops away letting the CM powered separate final stage take the sensors and warhead the rest of the way to the target.

These are impeller drives so the drive from the second stage will apparently do nothing to the jettisoned 1st stage, (which is theoretically straight behind it) at which point the 2nd stage accelerates away and continues whatever manuvering required to reach their inteneded target.

Something that hasn't come up is what then happens to that now inert 1st stage, "coasting" along at a fair fraction of C with no sensors and no guidance and no power for it's impeller.

Does it have a self-destruct charge? I ask because we are told that apparently all missles are built with self destruct charges to eliminated the weapon if it does not fire it's warhead (well, eject the lazing rods and then use the energy from the exploding warhead being focused through the lazing rods to attempt to hit the target.

Using the shipkiller as a booster/1st stage implys that you would remove at least the warhead and lazing rods from it before affixing the second stage whis the CM with it's warhead.

No self destruct charge in that 1st stage could make life really interesting if the inert 1st stage comes upon something. Fireing these things in the general direction of an inhabited planet or orbital facilities could lead to the spent boosters the size of a pod-launched shipkiller with all the mass that implies hitting things at tremendous speed.
That's an Uncontolled Kenetic Energy Weapon that is going to head in the direction it was last accelerating while being used to try and hit ships underway and while it's guidence was active it was manuvering to hit a moving/evading target along with dealing with that targets ECM.

Sounds like this potential EE hit written all over it. That's just in the time frame of the battle.
If the booster doesn't reach escape velocity for the system, it will likely come back through some time in the future. Right after it's own impeller cuts off, it will vanish from any tactical system that is tracking impellers and be off on a ballistic cruise. Anything downrange isn't going to see it comming. Anthing in the system when the ballistic body comes back through won't even have the potential advantage of knowing there might be debris comming. At that point only God will have any idea of where it is and were it is going after dealing with the various components of the systems gravity sources including the star.
So, does anyone think that perhaps a couple hundred tons of mil-sped metal comming in ballistic at perhaps .2 to .3C is going to be a problem? How about several thousand of them. Shotgun effect perhaps?

SharkHunter wrote:Totally awesome posts about the hammerhead reconfigurations that show the Sag-Cs channel levels went up so much, which IIRC also accounts for the Roland(s) missile control capabilities as well, methinks. Seems like the -C's are kind of the current "pound for pound" champions, that is for sure. Especially when the dynamic duo out at Bolthole finish their missile controller upgrades also known as "keyhole light".

For anything smaller than a BC I'd agree the Sag-C is the pound for pound winner.

But a Nike-class BC(L) is a little over 5 times the mass of a Sag-C. And given the offensive and, especially, defensive advantages of Keyhole I'm pretty sure a Nike could defeat 5 or 6 Sag-Cs.

Nike
Salvos of 50 missiles while rolled behind its wedge, forcing attacking missiles to get deeper into the defensive envelope before they have a line of sight; and only having fractions of a second as they cross the wedge opening to locate and hit the BC(L). Defended by 64 CM tubes and, depending on how the missile fire clears the wedge, between 12 - 30 PDLCs engaging it; not counting the additional PDLCs its 2 Keyholes carry - which can engage missiles before they reach the wedge. Plus heavier sidewalls and thicker armor, and the keyholes means that follow-on salvos of missiles and CMs don't "blind" the sensors and fire control links because the keyholes are well clear of the launch tubes - that allows you to control many more CMs per incoming salvo; taking more full advantage of the cyclic rate of the CM tubes.

Sag-C
Can't engage from behind it's wedge. Needs to point broadside or chase at the target to control its missiles and CMs. Has no offboard sensors/control links. Firing 40 missiles each back. Defended by 40 CM tubes and between 8 to 24 PDLCs (depending on facing)

So yes, 5 Sag-Cs are throwing a salvo that's 4 times the size of the one the Nike throws back. But the Nike's missile defenses are more than 4 times tougher - so it should be able to eat those 200 missile salvos (or 400 if they're double-stacking them) for lunch; letting it come out on top.

(But you can see how much firepower you have to trade-off to get the Keyhole platforms when you're only fitting 25% more missiles, 60% more CMs, and 31% more PDLCs onto a ship that's 5 times the mass! But BuShips thinks Keyhole is more than worth that trade-off.

(A Keyhole-light might well adjust that balance; but OTOH the Sag-C would probably have to give up some firepower to squeeze it in. And how much it'd change the balance would depend on how stripped down it is compared to a full up Mark 20 Keyhole)

Brigade XO wrote:So the initial stage, the modified normal anti-ship missile, drops away letting the CM powered separate final stage take the sensors and warhead the rest of the way to the target. [snip]

Sounds like this potential EE hit written all over it. That's just in the time frame of the battle.
If the booster doesn't reach escape velocity for the system, it will likely come back through some time in the future. [snip]

So, does anyone think that perhaps a couple hundred tons of mil-sped metal comming in ballistic at perhaps .2 to .3C is going to be a problem? How about several thousand of them. Shotgun effect perhaps?

I certainly wouldn't want to be anywhere near a system where a booster moving at over 0.2c is below the system's escape velocity!!! (Escape velocity of our solar system is roughly 0.00014c)

Depending on the Cataphract version the 1st stage burnout velocities seem to be:
Orginal (per Duckk's post):
180 seconds @ 467 KPS^2 = 0.2804c
Cataphract II (per SoV eArc):
180 seconds @ 561 KPS^2 = 0.3368c
Filaretta's (per UH):
180 seconds @ 710 KPS^2 = 0.4263c
Latest (per UH):
180 seconds @ 840 KPS^2 = 0.5043c

So yeah, if they don't get destroyed that's a multi-ton relativistic kinetic impacter flying blindly through the system. So I'd suspect they have a self-destruct mechanism. That might be as simple as having slightly larger plasma capacitors than needed for 180 seconds of acceleration combined with small shaped charges to shatter the containment. Now you've got a rapidly expanding ball of relativistic plasma screaming through your system...

Agreement 100% with your post

--quicksnip--

Jonathan_S wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Totally awesome posts about the hammerhead reconfigurations that show the Sag-Cs channel levels went up so much, which IIRC also accounts for the Roland(s) missile control capabilities as well, methinks. Seems like the -C's are kind of the current "pound for pound" champions, that is for sure. Especially when the dynamic duo out at Bolthole finish their missile controller upgrades also known as "keyhole light".

For anything smaller than a BC I'd agree the Sag-C is the pound for pound winner.

But a Nike-class BC(L) is a little over 5 times the mass of a Sag-C. And given the offensive and, especially, defensive advantages of Keyhole I'm pretty sure a Nike could defeat 5 or 6 Sag-Cs.

Agreed. I'm thinking more along the lines of a "minimal squadron utilization" where the RMN may be called in to deal with some mell of a hess in the verge, post- Uncompromising Honor. Same amount of tonnage, but the Sags could patrol a large sector and concentrate as needed to defeat, for now -- anything short of a Nike, etc. Throw in maybe a 2x contingent of Rolands and an FSV, you've probably got adequate "small sector or part sector" coverage for around the same tonnage as a Nike (+FSV to make it even weight). Yes/No?

SharkHunter wrote:Agreed. I'm thinking more along the lines of a "minimal squadron utilization" where the RMN may be called in to deal with some mell of a hess in the verge, post- Uncompromising Honor. Same amount of tonnage, but the Sags could patrol a large sector and concentrate as needed to defeat, for now -- anything short of a Nike, etc. Throw in maybe a 2x contingent of Rolands and an FSV, you've probably got adequate "small sector or part sector" coverage for around the same tonnage as a Nike. Yes/No?

I think so too. A Nike can outfight a squadron of Saganamis and will outlast too (has more missiles), but it really shines when flying in formation. But a Nike is also much more expensive than a CA, so the RMN and allies can get that many more platforms for the same cost, which means covering more systems in patrol.

Still, put a Rear Admiral in the flag bridge of a Nike, give him a squadron of Sag-Cs, a CLAC and/or an FSV, he or she can patrol a lot of systems and deal with any conceivable threat, up to and including all known non-allied SDFs. The largest SDF was Beowulf's, so the next best (which might be Mannerheim's) would have about two dozen SDs.