Do we actually need SD(P)s?

Not really. It doesn't take that much effort to blow up static targets without defenses, particularly with that many missile tubes.

kzt wrote:Not really. It doesn't take that much effort to blow up static targets without defenses, particularly with that many missile tubes.

I would agree, except that they did have 120k missiles deployed. Why did they have so many?

Or were they expecting the GA to arrive soon after the independence vote? They were scanning towards the ouuter system, after all. An arrival at the hyperlimit would give them hours of advance notice.

Though I'll agree that a few hours isn't sufficient time to deploy sufficient missiles from the TUFT freighters (see TUFT thread). If they were expecting the RMN to show up, it might be a good idea to deploy the pods.

Not that 120k missiles would have done much good if HMS Vukodlak (the CLAC) had been present.

--snipping--

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:The point here would be that in order for the Phantom to fire herself nearly dry she'd have to be out far enough that either her fire or the Solly return fire would take nearly 20 minutes to cover the distance (probably the Sollies since she'd be firing only Mk 16s). Anything shorter and her launchers literally wouldn't be able to cycle fast enough to empty her magazines.

Indeed, but then we go back to to the question of whether it was better to start with a Sunday punch, including the Sag-B's Mk14s, or to deliver smaller Mk16 salvos launched from further out. Clearly they concluded that a bigger salvo would be better, even if it meant that Phantom would not have fired all her missiles.

It was a Kobayashi Maru scenario (and no cheating allowed), so the task force had to do the best they could in the time they had, with the forces they had.

I don't know that my new scenario is clear yet. My new "fire plan" has all of the missiles arriving at the same time on target, i.e. Phantom opens up from a non-linear direction from the Sag B(s), the appropriate number of minutes ahead of time for the Mark 16Gs to transit the 11-12 Million Km towards the SLN BCs at a speed that allows the Mk14s from the Saganamis to arrive same time on target. (Back of the envelope calc, that's probably 60% power?) However, the Bs no longer have that 120K salvo coming their way, they light off their own Lorelies at an opportune time, etc. so all they are defending themselves against are tube-launched.

So the number of missiles hitting the SLN task group for the same number of salvos is identical. Though Ilkova wouldn't be quite as primed to manage the whole firing sequences, so they would have had to make a distribution of targets firing pattern ahead of time to coordinate fire so that the Sollies never know which "set of ships" is targeting which BCs. Also, at a greater distances 5-6 more salvos would have remained under shipboard control with correspondingly greater hit rates before the SLN mega-salvo took out Phantom.

(Keep in mind that at 25 million KM, they'd think Phantom's Lorellies were additional light or heavy cruisers trying to hide under stealth four minutes longer. Thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

Indeed, but then we go back to to the question of whether it was better to start with a Sunday punch, including the Sag-B's Mk14s, or to deliver smaller Mk16 salvos launched from further out. Clearly they concluded that a bigger salvo would be better, even if it meant that Phantom would not have fired all her missiles.

It was a Kobayashi Maru scenario (and no cheating allowed), so the task force had to do the best they could in the time they had, with the forces they had.

I don't know that my new scenario is clear yet. My new "fire plan" has all of the missiles arriving at the same time on target, i.e. Phantom opens up from a non-linear direction from the Sag B(s), the appropriate number of minutes ahead of time for the Mark 16Gs to transit the 11-12 Million Km towards the SLN BCs at a speed that allows the Mk14s from the Saganamis to arrive same time on target. (Back of the envelope calc, that's probably 60% power?) However, the Bs no longer have that 120K salvo coming their way, they light off their own Lorelies at an opportune time, etc. so all they are defending themselves against are tube-launched.

So the number of missiles hitting the SLN task group for the same number of salvos is identical. Though Ilkova wouldn't be quite as primed to manage the whole firing sequences, so they would have had to make a distribution of targets firing pattern ahead of time to coordinate fire so that the Sollies never know which "set of ships" is targeting which BCs. Also, at a greater distances 5-6 more salvos would have remained under shipboard control with correspondingly greater hit rates before the SLN mega-salvo took out Phantom.

(Keep in mind that at 25 million KM, they'd think Phantom's Lorellies were additional light or heavy cruisers trying to hide under stealth for minutes longer. Thoughts?[/quote]

SO we have 2 Streams of Missiles arriving on target (Different Speeds, Directions and origins). How many salvo's is it going to take to identify that the Stream of Mk16's is doing the real damage and so focusing the CM systems on those faster missiles ? Also I suspect that it's random as to which source is localized first - the larger Phantom on it's own or the Sag B's. Also with the SLN aware that they have two targets to find I doubt that they would fire such a big salvo at the first.
SO you have a chance of the Sag B's taking the whole salvo to themselves, leaving the Phantom to face the SLN Tubes on it's own or the overkill is split into 2 salvos which given the overkill would not save anybody. Indeed it could lead the SLN to not go for a all in one launch but to think. That would defeat the objective of getting rid of all the pods.

Now it might have been possible to use the RMN's Lorelies to create a fake taskforce to absorb the SLN's slavo at a safe distance from the RMN ships. While the Salvo's might well blow through the fake force if they've allready deployed their ECM and used up the missile's energy budget then the PD solution for the RMN would be easier. A forward defense line as it were to break up the incoming attack.

SharkHunter wrote:I don't know that my new scenario is clear yet. My new "fire plan" has all of the missiles arriving at the same time on target, i.e. Phantom opens up from a non-linear direction from the Sag B(s), the appropriate number of minutes ahead of time for the Mark 16Gs to transit the 11-12 Million Km towards the SLN BCs at a speed that allows the Mk14s from the Saganamis to arrive same time on target. (Back of the envelope calc, that's probably 60% power?) However, the Bs no longer have that 120K salvo coming their way, they light off their own Lorelies at an opportune time, etc. so all they are defending themselves against are tube-launched.

So the number of missiles hitting the SLN task group for the same number of salvos is identical. Though Ilkova wouldn't be quite as primed to manage the whole firing sequences, so they would have had to make a distribution of targets firing pattern ahead of time to coordinate fire so that the Sollies never know which "set of ships" is targeting which BCs. Also, at a greater distances 5-6 more salvos would have remained under shipboard control with correspondingly greater hit rates before the SLN mega-salvo took out Phantom.

(Keep in mind that at 25 million KM, they'd think Phantom's Lorellies were additional light or heavy cruisers trying to hide under stealth for minutes longer. Thoughts?

It's fundamentally flawed. If Phantom is that far out, it's unlikely the Sollies would be able to get a firing lock on it. Certainly not before the Sang-Bs start firing. That leaves the Sang-Bs in the same location they were, getting detected as early as they were, and taking the entire alpha strike pod launch themselves. And since at the time of detection the Sang-Bs would be the closer targets which are firing more missiles than the more distant, undetected target, they're going to take the pod launch themselves. No chance of survivors on those three ships, as they can't even defend themselves by rolling their wedges into it. But Phantom itself would get away without a scratch.

In fact, they could keep Arngrim in company with Phantom to use her missiles as long as they last since they're not likely to face return fire at all. At most some tube-launched missiles from the survivors of the Sollie force.

In a cold, calculating way that outcome would be preferable. Their fire would be more effective and they'd have a far higher proportion of the crews surviving the battle, but the morale cost of knowingly sending three ships in to die to protect the other two is going to be pretty high.

Captain Golding wrote:SO we have 2 Streams of Missiles arriving on target (Different Speeds, Directions and origins). How many salvo's is it going to take to identify that the Stream of Mk16's is doing the real damage and so focusing the CM systems on those faster missiles ? Also I suspect that it's random as to which source is localized first - the larger Phantom on it's own or the Sag B's. Also with the SLN aware that they have two targets to find I doubt that they would fire such a big salvo at the first.
SO you have a chance of the Sag B's taking the whole salvo to themselves, leaving the Phantom to face the SLN Tubes on it's own or the overkill is split into 2 salvos which given the overkill would not save anybody. Indeed it could lead the SLN to not go for a all in one launch but to think. That would defeat the objective of getting rid of all the pods.

Now it might have been possible to use the RMN's Lorelies to create a fake taskforce to absorb the SLN's slavo at a safe distance from the RMN ships. While the Salvo's might well blow through the fake force if they've allready deployed their ECM and used up the missile's energy budget then the PD solution for the RMN would be easier. A forward defense line as it were to break up the incoming attack.

Phantom has much better stealth than the Sang-Bs, so unless she's trying to be detected the Bs are going to be detected first. And the Sollies have a use-them-or-lose-them situation where they would need to launch at whatever target they have before the first incoming salvo lands. That's going to be the Bs unless Phantom intentionally lets herself get detected. If anything, they could do that and not open up with the Bs until either the first salvo eliminates the deployed pods or those pods are launched at the Phantom. That plan would probably end better than the other way around - the Cataphracts would be launched at longer range, potentially even with a coast phase, against the best defenses. And it lets Phantom get more salvos off.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Phantom has much better stealth than the Sang-Bs, so unless she's trying to be detected the Bs are going to be detected first. And the Sollies have a use-them-or-lose-them situation where they would need to launch at whatever target they have before the first incoming salvo lands. That's going to be the Bs unless Phantom intentionally lets herself get detected. If anything, they could do that and not open up with the Bs until either the first salvo eliminates the deployed pods or those pods are launched at the Phantom. That plan would probably end better than the other way around - the Cataphracts would be launched at longer range, potentially even with a coast phase, against the best defenses. And it lets Phantom get more salvos off.

Another problem is that a Nike has more missile control links than a Sag-B and better sensors. So if the ships are flying in formation, they can put a bigger salvo that if they were flying separately and a more effective salvo of the same size.

Can the Saganami-Bs even control a double broadside salvo? I assume they can at least that, but they don't much left over redundancy.

Can Saganami-Bs control Loreleis? If they can't, then the solly tactical officers will see them for what they were: three CAs. They won't fire 120k missiles at three targets, not when clearly there are more missiles coming from another direction.

I assume your plan is not for the two forces to start firing at the same time, as there's no extra value in that, but instead for Phantom to start firing longer-ranged Mk16 missiles from further out. That leaves two possibilities: either the first salvo from Phantom is time-on-target with the Sag-Bs' or some later salvo is. Either way, because Phantom fired earlier, it means the sollies have more time to look for them, which means that they may be detected sooner. Even if Hajdu fired all his 120k missiles at a single BC plus Loreleis and the combined attacks managed to take out 30 SLN BCs, that leaves 3 CAs firing Mk14 plus the uncontrolled Mk16 still in flight at 58 SLN BCs. That's not odds I'd like.

If the TF1030 found Phantom before the Sag-Bs opened fire, it means Phantom will fire fewer salvos before she's destroyed. If TF1030 found Phantom after the other forces opened fire, Hajdu wouldn't be stupid to fire all his missiles in one direction when the incoming ones are coming from two. He'd have split.

Finally, Phantom couldn't have believably run 5 Loreleis, since the salvos she put out wouldn't be that dense. Seeing just 3 or 4 ships instead of 9, the SLN tactical officers may not be fooled sufficiently to fire the 120k missiles. If they held some back, then the Sag-Bs die even more thoroughly since they can't put as much defence as a Nike.

Sorry, I don't see how this would be a better solution.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:Phantom has much better stealth than the Sang-Bs, so unless she's trying to be detected the Bs are going to be detected first. And the Sollies have a use-them-or-lose-them situation where they would need to launch at whatever target they have before the first incoming salvo lands. That's going to be the Bs unless Phantom intentionally lets herself get detected. If anything, they could do that and not open up with the Bs until either the first salvo eliminates the deployed pods or those pods are launched at the Phantom. That plan would probably end better than the other way around - the Cataphracts would be launched at longer range, potentially even with a coast phase, against the best defenses. And it lets Phantom get more salvos off.

Another problem is that a Nike has more missile control links than a Sag-B and better sensors. So if the ships are flying in formation, they can put a bigger salvo that if they were flying separately and a more effective salvo of the same size.

Can the Saganami-Bs even control a double broadside salvo? I assume they can at least that, but they don't much left over redundancy.

Can Saganami-Bs control Loreleis? If they can't, then the solly tactical officers will see them for what they were: three CAs. They won't fire 120k missiles at three targets, not when clearly there are more missiles coming from another direction.

I assume your plan is not for the two forces to start firing at the same time, as there's no extra value in that, but instead for Phantom to start firing longer-ranged Mk16 missiles from further out. That leaves two possibilities: either the first salvo from Phantom is time-on-target with the Sag-Bs' or some later salvo is. Either way, because Phantom fired earlier, it means the sollies have more time to look for them, which means that they may be detected sooner. Even if Hajdu fired all his 120k missiles at a single BC plus Loreleis and the combined attacks managed to take out 30 SLN BCs, that leaves 3 CAs firing Mk14 plus the uncontrolled Mk16 still in flight at 58 SLN BCs. That's not odds I'd like.

If the TF1030 found Phantom before the Sag-Bs opened fire, it means Phantom will fire fewer salvos before she's destroyed. If TF1030 found Phantom after the other forces opened fire, Hajdu wouldn't be stupid to fire all his missiles in one direction when the incoming ones are coming from two. He'd have split.

Finally, Phantom couldn't have believably run 5 Loreleis, since the salvos she put out wouldn't be that dense. Seeing just 3 or 4 ships instead of 9, the SLN tactical officers may not be fooled sufficiently to fire the 120k missiles. If they held some back, then the Sag-Bs die even more thoroughly since they can't put as much defence as a Nike.

Sorry, I don't see how this would be a better solution.

Actually, pretending to be older ships might have worked, especially given that the Sollies don't have a firm handle on current Manty capabilities.

the Nike was 25 mk 16 tubes in each broadside, and can fire them offbore. the cycle time is 18 seconds per salvo or 54 sec for a 3 double broadside alpha launch.

Older SLN Intolerants (sp) had a cycle time of 45 sec, while mod 6 and Nevadas have a cycle time of ~35 seconds. both have ~27 tubes in each broadside

Reliants have 25 tubes in a broadside and 8-12 second salvo cycle times - they have the same launchers as a Star Knight.

Assuming the SLN has pictures of a Reliant, but has not seen one in battle, they will know it's broadside, but have not seen it's cycle time personally, so seeing a launch per minute might be seen as normal, and 150 missiles equals ---- 6 Reliants. Yes this is long range fire- but the SLN has no idea what Manticore can do right now short of walking on water (and a good Manty counter grav belt can do wonders these days... but I digress). We know there is a Mk 13 ER - perhaps Reliants really could have pulled something like this legimately off - the SLN wouldn't know either.

Mostly responding to ThinksMarkedly but quicker not to snip.

Seeing as we could only run this "in the ATC simulators" - Kotouc et. all made their choices and we're reading about them...

First, all Haven sector ships have been capable of handling stacked salvos, demonstrated back in HotQ by Theisman, et. al, Forrester aboard Vaubon, and HMMC Wayfarer in HoE., and the extra distance wouldn't take 20 minutes for the missiles to cover because, second point -- Angrim at 60 Million KM is said to only have been 9 minutes out with a ballistic phase in the middle.

So there's a calculatable simulation that would achieve "better distribution using different salvo distributions and eventually full speed Mk16s ... with the point being that Phantom would have deliberately been positioning herself to time things to draw the massed salvo AND shoot herself dry of fully controlled salvo(s) as a sacrifice to maybe save the Sag-Bs.

Assume a couple of "quad stack initial launches", [double salvo, delayed activation on the first sets] which would have simulated what the SLN might have guessed about a BC and 4-6 heavy cruiser's "max tubes" could launch. Then they go quite just long enough that the fire distribution shows the SLN tactical officers "they're targeting our pods". Purpose being for Phantom to show "hey, we're over here!" while doing some damage when the initial salvo targets say six BCs.

Quoting the book: "Program an alpha launch," Vice Admiral Hajdu Győző said. "Let’s see how the bastards like that..." and off go the 120K missiles.

As soon as the SLN missiles get to a certain speed on the wrong vector, they can't be redirected back to the Sag-Bs. Since it's now going to take the Cataphracts twice as long to reach the "RMN ships", Kotouc's team can wait a bit and then launch progressively higher speed Mk16-G shots at what was it? twenty-second intervals? and have a lot more missiles in space under full shipboard control for a greater span of time.

At a calculatable point, the SAG-Bs add to the havoc with their own now higher speed shots because they would have been even closer to TF 1030... Heck, you could even plan for the RMN salvos to basically almost interpenetrate each other to some extent so that the SLN wouldn't know where the deadlier missiles were coming from. Wouldn't that be a fun sequence for the dazzlers and dragons teeth... -- evil grin --

It would be like a ground-pounder smoke-of-battle problem for the SLN, in equivalent terms trying to detect if you were getting bombarded by a farther away 120MM mortar or 4 nearby M85s, each firing maximum speed at your division. At some point, command confusion takes over because you really don't care except trying to avoid the falling mortar shells because dead is dead.

But again to repeat. I like the actual section of the book as written. This is all "wargaming".

@thinksmarkedly

Can the Saganami-Bs even control a double broadside salvo? I assume they can at least that, but they don't much left over redundancy.

As launched, no. Presumably upgrades took care of that to some extent. It could be that Phantom was controlling all of the launches with Keyhole, though.

If the TF1030 found Phantom before the Sag-Bs opened fire, it means Phantom will fire fewer salvos before she's destroyed. If TF1030 found Phantom after the other forces opened fire, Hajdu wouldn't be stupid to fire all his missiles in one direction when the incoming ones are coming from two. He'd have split.

You're forgetting the use-or-lose consideration. Few of those pods are going to survive the first salvo, so TF1030 would need to launch before that at whatever target is available. Even if doing so is horribly inefficient, they don't have much choice.

@theemile

the Nike was 25 mk 16 tubes in each broadside, and can fire them offbore. the cycle time is 18 seconds per salvo or 54 sec for a 3 double broadside alpha launch.

As described in text, the four ships were launching 350+ salvos of double broadsides at 20 second intervals. The only way that's possible is all four ships pumping out a broadside every 10 seconds. Sang Bs have 42 total tubes each and 50 from Phantom gives 352 missiles per double launch. This is close to the 12 second launch cycle I remembered for Mark 16 tubes.