Why "bad enemy leadership" makes sense in Safehold

n7axw wrote:Dilandu, do you have any comments about why Stalin apparently rejecting warnings about an impending German attack prior to Barbarosa?

Don

-

Generally because warnings were inconsistent, with a lot of discrepancy and contradictions between them. Stalin was... critical of Soviet intelligence service after some really embarrassing blunders in 1930s, and he was aware that Germans and British are very adept in feeding false information.

The other reason was, that Stalin could not believe that Hitler would do such a stupid thing. Attacking USSR while Germany already proven itself incapable of defeating Britain and bogged down in Africa was essentially a two-front war - which Germany was totally against before. Essentially, Stalin believed that Hitler is too smart to do such stupid thing. But, as it became obvious, Hitler stupidity was truly without any limits...

So essentially, Stalin have strong logical arguments to assume that Germany would not dare to attack, and generally not very strong warnings that Germany maybe would attack (but maybe not - even Sorge reported that this is only a possibility). He also knew that Britain would do basically anything to drag USSR into the war - and Britain have quite good intelligence in 1941, perfectly capable of feeding false information to USSR. So, it was clearly a mistake - but logical mistake.

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:Dilandu, do you have any comments about why Stalin apparently rejecting warnings about an impending German attack prior to Barbarosa?

Don

-

Generally because warnings were inconsistent, with a lot of discrepancy and contradictions between them. Stalin was... critical of Soviet intelligence service after some really embarrassing blunders in 1930s, and he was aware that Germans and British are very adept in feeding false information. A

Stalin could not believe that Hitler would do such a stupid thing. Attacking USSR while Germany already proven itself incapable of defeating Britain and bogged down in Africa was essentially a two-front war - which Germany was totally against before. Essentially, Stalin believed that Hitler is too smart to do such stupid thing. But, as it became obvious, Hitler stupidity was truly without any limits...

So essentially, Stalin have strong logical arguments to assume that Germany would not dare to attack, and generally not very strong warnings that Germany maybe would attack (but maybe not - even Sorge reported that this is only a possibility). He also knew that Britain would do basically anything to drag USSR into the war - and Britain have quite good intelligence in 1941, perfectly capable of feeding false information to USSR. So, it was clearly a mistake - but logical mistake.

Nice response. Reminds me that I have a lot to learn. The Brits were good at Intel and a lot more. I have a lot of respect for them.

Don

-

The British also had a lot of inbred, useless, corrupt or traitorous scumbags.

Go read up about the "Oxford Five" for.instance.
I can respect, even if want prosecuted, a spy who does so from genuine conscience.
A lot of ugly stuff about what REALLY went on with those bastards however was covered up, as per usual.
Rape and child abuse for example.
Check also on Kim Philby's father...betrayed his nation, too.

Ugly truth was, the Victorian practice of sending their little kids to private schools set up cycles of horrible abuse and thus the "Old School Tie Network" was riddled with the most foul deviants, hypocrites and people who were left with terrible mental scars some of which they took out by betraying the system that let them be so terrible abused (and I'm not talking about being "gay", gay is just an unusual form of "normal", plenty of brave, noble, brilliant and spiritual folk have been homosexual. Paedophiles are another matter entirely...sorry for the "ugliness" but it's extremely serious and a massive problem and covered up like concrete)

Please research the word "figging", where it comes from and what it says about the horrendous culture of those private schools.

Also, while Britain did have many brilliant, wonderful, capable folk, etc, the "British Establishment" used the "Official Secrets.Act" like a blanket to cover up their crimes, arrogance and stupidity. Way way over used.
During the Cold War, Britain was MORE secretive than the Soviets in fact the only regimes more secretive were Albania and North Korea!

Check also things like the so-called "suicide" of Willie McRae...kind of hard to shoot yourself in the head, TWICE, then toss the pistol out of the almost closed car window and have it land 60' behind you! Yeesh!

Another example:
During WW2, some MI6 ratbags, over privileged toffs, were not happy that "Special Operation Executive" were, as they saw it, "messing in their territory", and so the swine betrayed SOE agents to the Nazis!

Lot.of garbage went on that is still covered up or lied about to this day, sigh, they keep putting back how many years records are to be kept secret to preserve their "reputations"
Britain only survived WW2 inspite of those scumbags and morons.
For every nobleman or well-to-do who was truly "noble", there was another who was an entitled useless jackass and another who's heart was as dark as Satan's bunghole!

read up on the WW2 head of MI6 and also Churchill's scientific advisor, Frederick Lindemann for more on the issues and outlooks that bedvilled the UK, the Empire and Europe

SilverbladeTE wrote:The British also had a lot of inbred, useless, corrupt or traitorous scumbags.

Go read up about the "Oxford Five" for.instance.
I can respect, even if want prosecuted, a spy who does so from genuine conscience.
A lot of ugly stuff about what REALLY went on with those bastards however was covered up, as per usual.
Rape and child abuse for example.
Check also on Kim Philby's father...betrayed his nation, too.

Ugly truth was, the Victorian practice of sending their little kids to private schools set up cycles of horrible abuse and thus the "Old School Tie Network" was riddled with the most foul deviants, hypocrites and people who were left with terrible mental scars some of which they took out by betraying the system that let them be so terrible abused (and I'm not talking about being "gay", gay is just an unusual form of "normal", plenty of brave, noble, brilliant and spiritual folk have been homosexual. Paedophiles are another matter entirely...sorry for the "ugliness" but it's extremely serious and a massive problem and covered up like concrete)

Please research the word "figging", where it comes from and what it says about the horrendous culture of those private schools.

Also, while Britain did have many brilliant, wonderful, capable folk, etc, the "British Establishment" used the "Official Secrets.Act" like a blanket to cover up their crimes, arrogance and stupidity. Way way over used.
During the Cold War, Britain was MORE secretive than the Soviets in fact the only regimes more secretive were Albania and North Korea!

Check also things like the so-called "suicide" of Willie McRae...kind of hard to shoot yourself in the head, TWICE, then toss the pistol out of the almost closed car window and have it land 60' behind you! Yeesh!

Another example:
During WW2, some MI6 ratbags, over privileged toffs, were not happy that "Special Operation Executive" were, as they saw it, "messing in their territory", and so the swine betrayed SOE agents to the Nazis!

Lot.of garbage went on that is still covered up or lied about to this day, sigh, they keep putting back how many years records are to be kept secret to preserve their "reputations"
Britain only survived WW2 inspite of those scumbags and morons.
For every nobleman or well-to-do who was truly "noble", there was another who was an entitled useless jackass and another who's heart was as dark as Satan's bunghole!

read up on the WW2 head of MI6 and also Churchill's scientific advisor, Frederick Lindemann for more on the issues and outlooks that bedvilled the UK, the Empire and Europe

I hope you don't think you are surprising me. Everybody has their issues. As I am sure you are aware, we have ours on this side of the Atlantic. But consider: Britian was the incubator of the freedoms we all cherish in the West. By Britian I include the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish. Her practice of those values often come up short. Life is messy at best. But British institutions took root not only in Britian, but North America, India, Australia, New Zealand, and other places that weren't part of the Empire at all.

I'm not going to try to rehearse the story in detail, but I do want to mention a couple of other things for the Brits to be proud of. I've been into WW2 lately. Britian, along with France was bled white from 1914 to 1918. In 1940 France rolled over and gave up when the Germans rolled in. Not the Brits. Most of us are familiar with Dunkirk, the Battle of Britian and so on. A small country of about 37 million people, she stood alone for almost a year in Europe until Hitler's invasion of Russia and America's entry into the war eventually came. We yanks were Johnny come lately to the party, don't ya know. Again, most of us are aware of that. But did you know that between military and industrial effort, Britian's war effort was for her size the most thoroughly mobilized and best organized of any nation in the world?

So tip o the hat to you Britian. Count me proud to be an Anglophile.

Don

-

Don,

"What have the Romans ever done for us, eh?"
You know the Monty Python sketch?

Yes, the people of these.isles achieved an incredible amount of things.
My own very small country had colossal impact: the Scottish Enlightenment
Etc

But oh boy...the "issues"
Personally I think the worst thing that ever happened was the Norman Conquest, those wahoos perverted the underlying cultural and legal ethos of these islands and that led to much of the problems.
Edward "Longshanks" and his butchery is an obvious example but he caused ruin in many other ways, too, such as his robbery and expulsion of the Jews.

WW2 should have, and could have been an VERY easy victory for Britain and France.
Yeah lots of great advances, preparations...and it got stuffed up by the idjits
See the "Norway Campaign", or as I keep bitching about, lol, the dire state of the airforce thanks to the "bomber maniacs".

Also, Chruchill had a huge hand in screwing things up, he was NOT a "great.leader".
He had the chutzpah to force his will on the idjits, but his egotistical interference in details usually brought disaster.
His catastrophic over pricing of the British pound when it went back to the Gold Standard in 1925 devastated the economy and set the dominoes toppling that led to the Depression...and hamstrung British military modernization plans. Probably why HMS Hood sank can be traced.to.that as she wasn't refitted as planned.

The "Shadow Factory" system and other things were instrumental in the UK' survival and quite brilliant.
Logistics >>>> Gadgets
But.then look at.the morons at "TRE" and low.level.cover up of their dumbass crap as.an example of moronicity deluxe. Telecommunications Research Establishment


The Commonwealth stopped two of the worst horrors in Human history, but got wrecked by that. Took everything to put a brake on their steam roller campaigns.
So, way Hollywood keeps over looking.or outright insulting that is not remotely funny.
Yes, Russia and America were absolutely vital in defeating the Axis, Russia did the majority vs Germany and American industry had unparalleled effect on victory, but no British Commonwealth to halt the Axis...and things would be a lot.worse.

We lost Singapore and 70,000 men because of decades of arrogant stupidity, again it.should have been a walk over if things had been properly run and prepared... plus the locals and Indian POWs suffered even worse than British and Australia.POWs at.the hands of.the Japanese.

British Empire had a colossal amount of blood on its hands, there's good reason some refer to the Union Jack as "the butcher's apron"...Japanese though...dear God!
Churchill ordered the nurses who survived and escaped the fall of Hong Kong to keep silent on most of the atrocities committed by those vermin to prevent reprisals (war can bring out the worst and the British have committed many crimes in their imperial expansion, but the Imperial Japanese military of that era.have few peers in wide spread wanton sadistic atrocity, except for the likes of S.S. Dirlewanger)

Alas,.there's a huge cult of denial about the stupidity, corruption, etc of the Allies.
First few years of WW2 were largely absolute ludicrous screw ups for the Allies
WW2 was not the "victory" the media and society.claim, it was won at bloody cost most.of which should never have been paid.
Refusal to accept this...has been costly and.keeps.the cycle of stupidity.going.
Those who do not.learn from the mistakes of history, are doomed to repeat them. Iraq and Afghanistan for example.

SilverbladeTE wrote:Don,

"What have the Romans ever done for us, eh?"
You know the Monty Python sketch?

Yes, the people of these.isles achieved an incredible amount of things.
My own very small country had colossal impact: the Scottish Enlightenment
Etc

But oh boy...the "issues"
Personally I think the worst thing that ever happened was the Norman Conquest, those wahoos perverted the underlying cultural and legal ethos of these islands and that led to much of the problems.
Edward "Longshanks" and his butchery is an obvious example but he caused ruin in many other ways, too, such as his robbery and expulsion of the Jews.

WW2 should have, and could have been an VERY easy victory for Britain and France.
Yeah lots of great advances, preparations...and it got stuffed up by the idjits
See the "Norway Campaign", or as I keep bitching about, lol, the dire state of the airforce thanks to the "bomber maniacs".

Also, Chruchill had a huge hand in screwing things up, he was NOT a "great.leader".
He had the chutzpah to force his will on the idjits, but his egotistical interference in details usually brought disaster.
His catastrophic over pricing of the British pound when it went back to the Gold Standard in 1925 devastated the economy and set the dominoes toppling that led to the Depression...and hamstrung British military modernization plans. Probably why HMS Hood sank can be traced.to.that as she wasn't refitted as planned.

The "Shadow Factory" system and other things were instrumental in the UK' survival and quite brilliant.
Logistics >>>> Gadgets
But.then look at.the morons at "TRE" and low.level.cover up of their dumbass crap as.an example of moronicity deluxe. Telecommunications Research Establishment


The Commonwealth stopped two of the worst horrors in Human history, but got wrecked by that. Took everything to put a brake on their steam roller campaigns.
So, way Hollywood keeps over looking.or outright insulting that is not remotely funny.
Yes, Russia and America were absolutely vital in defeating the Axis, Russia did the majority vs Germany and American industry had unparalleled effect on victory, but no British Commonwealth to halt the Axis...and things would be a lot.worse.

We lost Singapore and 70,000 men because of decades of arrogant stupidity, again it.should have been a walk over if things had been properly run and prepared... plus the locals and Indian POWs suffered even worse than British and Australia.POWs at.the hands of.the Japanese.

British Empire had a colossal amount of blood on its hands, there's good reason some refer to the Union Jack as "the butcher's apron"...Japanese though...dear God!
Churchill ordered the nurses who survived and escaped the fall of Hong Kong to keep silent on most of the atrocities committed by those vermin to prevent reprisals (war can bring out the worst and the British have committed many crimes in their imperial expansion, but the Imperial Japanese military of that era.have few peers in wide spread wanton sadistic atrocity, except for the likes of S.S. Dirlewanger)

Alas,.there's a huge cult of denial about the stupidity, corruption, etc of the Allies.
First few years of WW2 were largely absolute ludicrous screw ups for the Allies
WW2 was not the "victory" the media and society.claim, it was won at bloody cost most.of which should never have been paid.
Refusal to accept this...has been costly and.keeps.the cycle of stupidity.going.
Those who do not.learn from the mistakes of history, are doomed to repeat them. Iraq and Afghanistan for example.

I was just trying to add a bit of balance to your previous post. Look we've all got things to be embarrassed about. On this side of the pond, slavery, our treatment of African Americans since ACW, our treatment of indigenous (sp) peoples, what happened to Japanese Americans during ww2... The list can go on. And yet we have also stood for freedom around the world, championed the rule of law rather than individuals (not withstanding our current situation ), welcomed outsiders and tried to widen economic opportunity. So which is the real America? The answer is both.

So also with Britian. Don't your preoccupation with the darker side blind you to her ideals. We all need to hold up those ideals and keep working toward them Don't give up. Remember Dr. King's ecouragement: "The arc of the universe bends toward justice."

Don

-

SilverbladeTE wrote:
WW2 should have, and could have been an VERY easy victory for Britain and France.

Only if they would be able to overcame their distrust and made a working pact with USSR. Then yes, Germany could be defeated as early as 1941 (1942 most probably, though): Germany could not sustain two-front war at all.

But this would required Chamberlain stop trying to betray France and get rid of his "Italy would kept Hitler in check, if we support Mussolini" delusions. Also, the Polish question: to get effective cooperation from USSR, they need to persuade Poland to agree on Curzon's line border. Which would probably immediately draw Poland to Hitler side, considering their government attitude.

n7axw wrote:Probably why HMS Hood sank can be traced.to.that as she wasn't refitted as planned.

Yes, RN was far behind the others in therms of re-arming and refitting. All American, Japanese and Italian old battleships were refitted by the end of 1930s (France did not, but mainly because her old dreadnoughts have limited refit potential due to their small size, and thus Marina Nationale always thought more about replacement, not refit). Essentially, only a pair of "Renown"-class battlecruisers, and two QE-class battleships received full upgrade by the start of the war (another one was ready only in 1941), and one of "Revenge"-class were somewhat near that (ironically it was HMS "Royal Oak"...). Five capital ships out of fifteen available - 33,3%!

The RN approach was to spend what little money were available on older ship first, assuming that they needed refit more urgently, while newer ships are good enough as they are. As a result, neither "Hood" nor "Rodney" or "Nelson" - the most formidable units if RN! - ever received any major reconstruction. Essentially, they were the 1920s battleships all their career, with only significant improvements in fire control and short-range AA defense.

Dilandu wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:
WW2 should have, and could have been an VERY easy victory for Britain and France.

Only if they would be able to overcame their distrust and made a working pact with USSR. Then yes, Germany could be defeated as early as 1941 (1942 most probably, though): Germany could not sustain two-front war at all.

But this would required Chamberlain stop trying to betray France and get rid of his "Italy would kept Hitler in check, if we support Mussolini" delusions. Also, the Polish question: to get effective cooperation from USSR, they need to persuade Poland to agree on Curzon's line border. Which would probably immediately draw Poland to Hitler side, considering their government attitude.

There is another factor that plays in here that should play in here to consider which looms large in both Britian and France that prevented them from being ready either physically or mentally for ww2. It was ww1. Both countries are smallish, everything considered. Both were bled white in the trenches, losing an entire generation of young men with the high casualties to say nothing of the horrible waste in resources. Britian had a small well trained army that fought well, but had to be evacuated. France had a huge army, but mostly poorly trained and led with horrible morale which collapsed like a house of cards when hit. Neither country was in any way prepared for war in 1939. In fact they were desperately wanting to avoid it. So France collapses in six weeks. Britian manages to escape and live to fight another day.

Don

-

Just another comment on this... About Churchill... As a military leader, he sucked. Whenever he interfered, he screwed things up. But as a political leader, he was exactly what was needed at the moment, the man of the hour. I doubt that anyone could have rallied the British public like he did.

Don

-