Honor/Hamish/Emily

cthia wrote:
Good question. But I think, intuitively, any heir would be accepted in a crunch. Just like the unprecedented acceptance of a female Steadholder, even before Honor.

We know that there was a Barayan woman who declared herself to be "male" and assumed her father's Countship, absent any other heirs, and was accepted (probably with much grumbling") by the Council of Counts. I don't remember hearing of a woman becoming Steadholder before Honor. Did I miss something?

cthia wrote:Good question. But I think, intuitively, any heir would be accepted in a crunch. Just like the unprecedented acceptance of a female Steadholder, even before Honor.

Fox2! wrote:We know that there was a Barayan woman who declared herself to be "male" and assumed her father's Countship, absent any other heirs, and was accepted (probably with much grumbling") by the Council of Counts. I don't remember hearing of a woman becoming Steadholder before Honor. Did I miss something?

I do not follow Barrayar and also am not aware of another female steadholder (unless you mean the woman that helped against the Faithful during the religious civil war).

There was also a women who declared herself a man to rule the Anderman Empire.

tlb wrote:So you are saying each pledged to honor the other, except when they won't?

They can't honor both if they contradict, unless one takes precedence over the other. For example, if Manticoran law says that children of polygynous unions can't inherit titles, while Grayson law says they can and do, then that's a contradiction.

tlb wrote:So you are saying each pledged to honor the other, except when they won't?

Peregrinator wrote:They can't honor both if they contradict, unless one takes precedence over the other. For example, if Manticoran law says that children of polygynous unions can't inherit titles, while Grayson law says they can and do, then that's a contradiction.

If you only read the first line then you missed my explanation; here is the rest:

That is not the commonsense way these things work. A simple example is the way marriage works. One country may forbid polygamous marriages and another may allow them; if they have a law between them to honor each others laws, then such a married couple from the second country can travel to the first and be treated as legally married. Note that citizens of the first country cannot enter into a polygamous marriage within its borders, but could travel to the second country to do so.

In the text shown the Protector is clearly stating that Grayson could be forced by treaty to honor Manticoran inheritance laws; which should have answered the question that you posed. Grayson laws always apply when only Graysons are involved and the same with Manticoran laws; but in cases involving citizens of both, then those citizens might well get to pick which law to follow.

One result is that the countries should try to bring their laws into agreement to lessen potential legal fights. An example mentioned in the books is that Grayson needs to adopt the Beowulf Code about the legal status of clones.

I hope that makes it clearer, the precedence occurs based on the place where it occurs.

tlb wrote:In the text shown the Protector is clearly stating that Grayson could be forced by treaty to honor Manticoran inheritance laws; which should have answered the question that you posed. Grayson laws always apply when only Graysons are involved and the same with Manticoran laws; but in cases involving citizens of both, then those citizens might well get to pick which law to follow.

There are different degrees of conflict. Should something happen to both Honor and Raoul, right now Katharine would have a solid claim on the Harrington steading under Manticoran law but no claim at all under Grayson law, while Faith would have an ironclad claim under Grayson law but only third claim under Manticoran law, behind Katharine and Emily's second child.

In the quoted case, Devon may well win in a bid to inherit the Steadholdership because no one else has a potential claim on it. There's no conflict in law simply because Devon is technically the legal heir in both systems (excepting the Grayson citizenship issue). As it is now, there are potential situations where Grayson law would directly contradict Manticoran law and it would be foolish to expect either one to completely surrender their own law in their own territory. Harmonizing laws is one thing, but that would basically be Grayson surrendering their independence to join the Empire.

tlb wrote:In the text shown the Protector is clearly stating that Grayson could be forced by treaty to honor Manticoran inheritance laws; which should have answered the question that you posed. Grayson laws always apply when only Graysons are involved and the same with Manticoran laws; but in cases involving citizens of both, then those citizens might well get to pick which law to follow.

Galactic Sapper wrote:There are different degrees of conflict. Should something happen to both Honor and Raoul, right now Katharine would have a solid claim on the Harrington steading under Manticoran law but no claim at all under Grayson law, while Faith would have an ironclad claim under Grayson law but only third claim under Manticoran law, behind Katharine and Emily's second child.

In the quoted case, Devon may well win in a bid to inherit the Steadholdership because no one else has a potential claim on it. There's no conflict in law simply because Devon is technically the legal heir in both systems (excepting the Grayson citizenship issue). As it is now, there are potential situations where Grayson law would directly contradict Manticoran law and it would be foolish to expect either one to completely surrender their own law in their own territory. Harmonizing laws is one thing, but that would basically be Grayson surrendering their independence to join the Empire.

That is simply not a normal reading of the way a treaty recognizing each others laws works. Under such a treaty each surrenders some of their independence when a case involves the other nation. A number of years back, a group of Australians made a multi-million dollar killing in the Virginia lottery, but when Virginia tried to claim income tax it was barred because the US and Australia had made a treaty exempting citizens of one from the tax laws of the other, So the Australian government got to apply its tax laws to the jackpot, not anyone in the US.

Next, as I have repeatedly said; whether Katherine has a better claim in Manticore on Honor's Manticoran title and possessions than Faith does, depends entirely on details of Manticoran inheritance law that we do not know at this time. But if she does then she also has a better claim on Honor's Grayson title and properties than Faith under the treaty that the Protector mentioned.

Technically if Faith were already living, then Devon would still have a claim in both countries; but that claim would nor be as strong as Faith's, because her kinship was closer. What actually happened is that Devon did not contest Grayson holding Honor's titles and possessions for a potential sibling, because he was overwhelmed by what he got from Honor's estate in Manticore.

tlb wrote:That is simply not a normal reading of the way a treaty recognizing each others laws works. Under such a treaty each surrenders some of their independence when a case involves the other nation.

That's the way treaties work in the United States (it's in the Constitution), but it doesn't have to be. And even there there are limits -- treaties become federal law, but if a treaty were found to be in conflict with the Constitution itself, it would be void.

In any case, it's certainly not outside the bounds of belief that two parties to a treaty can have conflicting interpretations of it.

Of course, this is really academic, as I doubt there will be any such conflict in the books.

tlb wrote:That is simply not a normal reading of the way a treaty recognizing each others laws works. Under such a treaty each surrenders some of their independence when a case involves the other nation.

Peregrinator wrote:That's the way treaties work in the United States (it's in the Constitution), but it doesn't have to be. And even there there are limits -- treaties become federal law, but if a treaty were found to be in conflict with the Constitution itself, it would be void.

In any case, it's certainly not outside the bounds of belief that two parties to a treaty can have conflicting interpretations of it.

Of course, this is really academic, as I doubt there will be any such conflict in the books.

That is also the way treaties work in many countries other that the USA and for those with written constitutions the same caveat applies.

But we have reached a point of agreement in that last statement.

MC1560 wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:It was far more than consent - it was active encouragement.

"Oh honey, I'm so happy you and Honor are together. Go have fun. I'll just stay here, block out any bad thoughts, smile and try not to cry."

If Honor brought another man home claiming that she loved him and wanted to marry him too, I doubt Hamish's answer would be "That's swell honey. Sure you can marry him, more the merrier I say."

This ship must be righted. It wasn't consent at all, certainly not initially. Emily had to be talked into it by Samantha; who I imagine used brutal truths . . .

<Em, hon, you are swimming upstream against the raging rapids. Both of them are in love and Hamish wants to rip off her clothes and rut. He still loves you, but you can't fight mother nature. You might as well join 'em. Honor makes him whole>

As you said, MC1560, the door of the marriage has been legally widened; how would Hamish feel if Samantha sat him down and explained to him that Honor wants to bring another man into the marriage, because her Beowulfan urges have been awakened?

cthia wrote:This ship must be righted. It wasn't consent at all, certainly not initially. Emily had to be talked into it by Samantha; who I imagine used brutal truths . . .

<Em, hon, you are swimming upstream against the raging rapids. Both of them are in love and Hamish wants to rip off her clothes and rut. He still loves you, but you can't fight mother nature. You might as well join 'em. Honor makes him whole>

As you said, MC1560, the door of the marriage has been legally widened; how would Hamish feel if Samantha sat him down and explained to him that Honor wants to bring another man into the marriage, because her Beowulfan urges have been awakened?

I have a suggestion, how about you keep your disturbing fanfic fantasies to yourself.

Also, go read the relevant chapter in WoH.