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Honor/Hamish/Emily

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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by tlb   » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:43 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote: There is no question that the marriage itself is legal; there is concern expressed as to if/how it affects passing of titles. Apparently it's a situation that has rarely or never arose in the Manticoran nobility.

Since Manticore practices primogeniture (oldest offspring inherits), does it apply to marriages as well? Does the earlier marriage of Hamish and Emily mean their offspring are "senior" in terms of inheriting White Haven, or is it the oldest offspring of the marriage regardless of maternity?

Obviously for the Harrington titles, since their being passed down through Honor and not Hamish, her direct offspring are "senior". In terms of the Steadholdership, it's suggested that Emily's genetic children are not in the succession at all and after Raoul it would pass back to Faith as an "heir of her body" meaning bloodline rather than marriage.

I would never have thought of worrying about how senior a marriage was in determining primogeniture, which literally means first born; but I have already admitted that we do not have text for Manticoran inheritance.

This is what I wrote previously (with slight revisions). It seems to me that Katherine could also considered to be Honor's child, although not of her blood; because of the joint marriage. We have not been provided with a view of how Manticore answers this question, but my impression of Grayson (from what we have seen of the Protector's family) is that the children are held jointly. If true that would put Katherine second in line to Raoul and definitely ahead of Faith and James. Any further children born of the marriage (including Emily's second) would remain ahead of Honor's siblings.

The big question about what I have just said is "how Grayson would view an heir of Honor, that was not of her blood?". This is something that has not come up before, because the other Steadholders are men.

We will not know a correct answer to these questions until RFC describes the relevant laws of inheritance.
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:04 pm

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Peregrinator wrote:I wasn't quite sure of the precise word to use, I chose "morganatic" because it seemed the best for when the children of the marriage are excluded from succession. I doubt rank matters much under Manticoran law; but a polygynous union might.



At least in the special case of the monarch and the monarch's heir, rank does matter. If the monarch and the monarch's heir are unmarried, they must marry a commoner, rather than a member of the nobility. Now, how far down is nobility transmitted? Gwen Archer is not titled, but he is a distant relation of the Wintons, and is mentioned in the book of the Manticoran peerage. Would he be excluded from marrying the Winton heir?
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by Peregrinator   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:38 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:There is no question that the marriage itself is legal; there is concern expressed as to if/how it affects passing of titles. Apparently it's a situation that has rarely or never arose in the Manticoran nobility.

Since Manticore practices primogeniture (oldest offspring inherits), does it apply to marriages as well? Does the earlier marriage of Hamish and Emily mean their offspring are "senior" in terms of inheriting White Haven, or is it the oldest offspring of the marriage regardless of maternity?

Thanks, this is what I was trying to get at.
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by locarno24   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:11 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:I wasn't quite sure of the precise word to use, I chose "morganatic" because it seemed the best for when the children of the marriage are excluded from succession. I doubt rank matters much under Manticoran law; but a polygynous union might.



At least in the special case of the monarch and the monarch's heir, rank does matter. If the monarch and the monarch's heir are unmarried, they must marry a commoner, rather than a member of the nobility. Now, how far down is nobility transmitted? Gwen Archer is not titled, but he is a distant relation of the Wintons, and is mentioned in the book of the Manticoran peerage. Would he be excluded from marrying the Winton heir?


Hard to tell - but I would suggest that the fact that it's coded into law means probably not very far; because if it's a formal legal bar, there surely must be an unambiguous and unarguable way to tell if the rule does or does not apply - if there wasn't then the matter will have come before the courts over the years, and the precedent set by the courts' ruling on the matter will become said rule.

Since there's a formal list of members of the 'book of peerage', then the rules set as to whether you get in said book probably apply - so unfortunately, probably he couldn't.
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by cthia   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:44 am

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tlb wrote:
Galactic Sapper wrote: There is no question that the marriage itself is legal; there is concern expressed as to if/how it affects passing of titles. Apparently it's a situation that has rarely or never arose in the Manticoran nobility.

Since Manticore practices primogeniture (oldest offspring inherits), does it apply to marriages as well? Does the earlier marriage of Hamish and Emily mean their offspring are "senior" in terms of inheriting White Haven, or is it the oldest offspring of the marriage regardless of maternity?

Obviously for the Harrington titles, since their being passed down through Honor and not Hamish, her direct offspring are "senior". In terms of the Steadholdership, it's suggested that Emily's genetic children are not in the succession at all and after Raoul it would pass back to Faith as an "heir of her body" meaning bloodline rather than marriage.

I would never have thought of worrying about how senior a marriage was in determining primogeniture, which literally means first born; but I have already admitted that we do not have text for Manticoran inheritance.

This is what I wrote previously (with slight revisions). It seems to me that Katherine could also considered to be Honor's child, although not of her blood; because of the joint marriage. We have not been provided with a view of how Manticore answers this question, but my impression of Grayson (from what we have seen of the Protector's family) is that the children are held jointly. If true that would put Katherine second in line to Raoul and definitely ahead of Faith and James. Any further children born of the marriage (including Emily's second) would remain ahead of Honor's siblings.

The big question about what I have just said is "how Grayson would view an heir of Honor, that was not of her blood?". This is something that has not come up before, because the other Steadholders are men.

We will not know a correct answer to these questions until RFC describes the relevant laws of inheritance.

Good question. But I think, intuitively, any heir would be accepted in a crunch. Just like the unprecedented acceptance of a female Steadholder, even before Honor.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:34 am

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tlb wrote:
Galactic Sapper wrote: There is no question that the marriage itself is legal; there is concern expressed as to if/how it affects passing of titles. Apparently it's a situation that has rarely or never arose in the Manticoran nobility.

Since Manticore practices primogeniture (oldest offspring inherits), does it apply to marriages as well? Does the earlier marriage of Hamish and Emily mean their offspring are "senior" in terms of inheriting White Haven, or is it the oldest offspring of the marriage regardless of maternity?

Obviously for the Harrington titles, since their being passed down through Honor and not Hamish, her direct offspring are "senior". In terms of the Steadholdership, it's suggested that Emily's genetic children are not in the succession at all and after Raoul it would pass back to Faith as an "heir of her body" meaning bloodline rather than marriage.

I would never have thought of worrying about how senior a marriage was in determining primogeniture, which literally means first born; but I have already admitted that we do not have text for Manticoran inheritance.

This is what I wrote previously (with slight revisions). It seems to me that Katherine could also considered to be Honor's child, although not of her blood; because of the joint marriage. We have not been provided with a view of how Manticore answers this question, but my impression of Grayson (from what we have seen of the Protector's family) is that the children are held jointly. If true that would put Katherine second in line to Raoul and definitely ahead of Faith and James. Any further children born of the marriage (including Emily's second) would remain ahead of Honor's siblings.

The big question about what I have just said is "how Grayson would view an heir of Honor, that was not of her blood?". This is something that has not come up before, because the other Steadholders are men.

We will not know a correct answer to these questions until RFC describes the relevant laws of inheritance.

Given what we know of Grayson inheritance of titles, I'd say the exact opposite. It's ALL genetics-based, not marriage based. For the Protector or any other Steadholder, which wife has the child is irrelevant as it's the genetic father who is passing the inheritance. Hence why there were so many instances of Steadholders passing titles to illegitimate children; in a pinch, even marriage doesn't matter. Only bloodline.

In Honor's case, bloodline inheritance can only be passed to her children; even an illegitimate child would probably be able to inherit if historic precedent were followed as bloodline trumps marriage. Technically, paternity for one of her children should be totally irrelevant to inheritance.

While it's something we never see in the books, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Steadholders challenged the eligibility of an heir due to his paternity being in doubt. People being people, it's bound to have happened a few times when Grayson lacked the medical tech to make definitive tests.
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by Peregrinator   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:42 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:While it's something we never see in the books, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Steadholders challenged the eligibility of an heir due to his paternity being in doubt. People being people, it's bound to have happened a few times when Grayson lacked the medical tech to make definitive tests.

I guess the Protector would have decided in cases where medical tech couldn't make a determination, subject to trial by combat
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by tlb   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:17 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:Given what we know of Grayson inheritance of titles, I'd say the exact opposite. It's ALL genetics-based, not marriage based. For the Protector or any other Steadholder, which wife has the child is irrelevant as it's the genetic father who is passing the inheritance. Hence why there were so many instances of Steadholders passing titles to illegitimate children; in a pinch, even marriage doesn't matter. Only bloodline.

In Honor's case, bloodline inheritance can only be passed to her children; even an illegitimate child would probably be able to inherit if historic precedent were followed as bloodline trumps marriage. Technically, paternity for one of her children should be totally irrelevant to inheritance.

While it's something we never see in the books, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Steadholders challenged the eligibility of an heir due to his paternity being in doubt. People being people, it's bound to have happened a few times when Grayson lacked the medical tech to make definitive tests.

As I have pointed out, we do not know enough about Maticoran law to discuss inheritance from a group marriage. But we do have textual evidence on the point you raise here, from Echoes of Honor, chapter 4:
"He explained the Strathson Steading precedent to me quite clearly, Henry. Lady Harrington—" he got the name out in an almost level voice "—left no heirs . . . and that means the Steading escheats to the Sword, just as Strathson did seven hundred years ago."
"Yes, and no," Prestwick said. "You see, she did leave heirs—quite a few of them, actually—if we want to look at it that way."
"Heirs? What heirs?" Clinkscales demanded. "She was an only child!"
"True. But the extended Harrington family is quite extensive . . . on Sphinx. She had dozens of cousins, Howard."
"But they're not Graysons," Clinkscales protested, "and only a Grayson can inherit a steadholder's key!"
"No, they're not Graysons. And that's what makes the situation complicated. Just as you discussed it with Justice Kleinmeuller, His Grace and I have discussed it with the High Court. And according to the Court, you're right: the Constitution clearly requires that the heir to any steading must be a citizen of Grayson. That, however, is largely because the Constitution never contemplated a situation in which a foreign citizen could stand in the line of succession for a steading. Or in which an off-worlder could have been made a steadholder in the first place, for that matter!"
"Lady Harrington was not an 'off-worlder'" Clinkscales said stiffly, eyes flashing with anger. "Whatever she may have been born, she—"
"Calm down, Howard," Benjamin said gently before the old man could work himself up into full-blown wrath. Clinkscales subsided, and Benjamin waved a hand in a brushing gesture. "I understand what you're saying, but she most certainly was an off-worlder when we offered her her steadholdership. Yes, yes. I know the situation was unprecedented—and, if I recall correctly, you were less than enthralled with it at the time, you stiff-necked, reactionary old dinosaur!"
Clinkscales blushed fiery red, and then, to his own immense surprise, he laughed. It wasn't much of a laugh, and it came out rusty and unpracticed sounding, but it was also his first real one in the two and a half months since he'd viewed Honor Harrington's execution, and he shook his head.
"That's true enough, Your Grace," he admitted. "But she became a Grayson citizen when she swore her Steadholder's Oath to you."
"Of course she did. And if I choose to use that as a precedent, then what I ought to do is send for her closest heir—her cousin Devon, isn't it, Henry?—and swear him in as her successor. After all, if we could make her a Grayson, we can make him one, as well
."
*** snip ***
"Thank you. And, yes, you're absolutely right about how the other Keys would react to any decision of mine to pass the Harrington Key to an 'off-worlder.' And I don't know enough about this Devon Harrington to begin to predict what sort of steadholder he'd make, either. I understand he's a history professor, so he might do better than anyone would expect. But it might also mean that, as an academic, he's totally unprepared for the command responsibilities a steadholdership entails."
"Well, Lady Harrington was certainly prepared for that part of it," Prestwick murmured, and Benjamin snorted.
"That she was, Henry. That she most certainly was, Comforter keep her." He paused for a moment, eyes warm with memory now, and not dark with grief, then shook himself. "But getting back to Professor Harrington, there's the question of whether or not it ever even crossed his mind that he might inherit from her. Do we have a right to turn his entire life topsy-turvy? Even if we asked him to, would he accept the Key in the first place?"
"But if we don't offer it to him, we may open still another Pandora's Box," Prestwick said quietly. Clinkscales looked at him, and the Chancellor shrugged. "Under our treaty with Manticore, the Protectorship and the Star Kingdom are mutually pledged to recognize the binding nature of one another's contracts and domestic law—including things like marriage and inheritance laws. And under Manticoran law, Devon Harrington is Lady Harrington's heir. He's the one who will inherit her Manticoran title as Earl Harrington."
"And?" Clinkscales prompted when Prestwick paused.
"And if he does want the Harrington Key and we don't offer it to him, he might sue to force us to surrender it to him."
"Sue the Protector and the Conclave?" Clinkscales stared at him in disbelief, and the Chancellor shrugged.
"Why not? He could make an excellent case before our own High Court . . . and an even better one before the Queen's Bench
. It would be interesting to see which venue he chose and how the case was argued, I suppose. But then, I imagine watching a bomb count down to detonation beside you is probably 'interesting' while the adventure lasts, too."
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by Peregrinator   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:25 pm

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tlb wrote:
the Protectorship and the Star Kingdom are mutually pledged to recognize the binding nature of one another's contracts and domestic law—including things like marriage and inheritance laws

Yes, but what if there is a conflict there? There are bound to be conflicts between Grayson inheritance law and Manticore, which one wins out? One easily solution might be: Grayson inheritance law always applies on Grayson where there's conflict, and Manticore law on Manticore
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Re: Honor/Hamish/Emily
Post by tlb   » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:35 pm

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the Protectorship and the Star Kingdom are mutually pledged to recognize the binding nature of one another's contracts and domestic law—including things like marriage and inheritance laws

Peregrinator wrote:Yes, but what if there is a conflict there? There are bound to be conflicts between Grayson inheritance law and Manticore, which one wins out? One easily solution might be: Grayson inheritance law always applies on Grayson where there's conflict, and Manticore law on Manticore

So you are saying each pledged to honor the other, except when they won't? That is not the commonsense way these things work. A simple example is the way marriage works. One country may forbid polygamous marriages and another may allow them; if they have a law between them to honor each others laws, then such a married couple from the second country can travel to the first and be treated as legally married. Note that citizens of the first country cannot enter into a polygamous marriage within its borders, but could travel to the second country to do so.

In the text shown the Protector is clearly stating that Grayson could be forced by treaty to honor Manticoran inheritance laws; which should have answered the question that you posed. Grayson laws always apply when only Graysons are involved and the same with Manticoran laws; but in cases involving citizens of both, then those citizens might well get to pick which law to follow.

One result is that the countries should try to bring their laws into agreement to lessen potential legal fights. An example mentioned in the books is that Grayson needs to adopt the Beowulf Code about the legal status of clones.
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