Do we actually need SD(P)s?

SharkHunter wrote:This was effectively answered both in Honor Among Enemies and Torch of Freedom, and finally in Shadow of Victory. Massive missile counts don't mean a whole lot without the armoring schemes that superdreadnoughts receive. To explain:

(1) If Wayfarer had enough armoring, they wouldn't have lost "cargo one" and could have gone on dumping pods until all the RHN battlecruisers are mission killed or detroyed.

(2) If Rozak's ammunition ships had armoring, his ammunition ships at least partially survive and his salvo density stays high enough fast enough to end the battle more quickly.

3) With the Charles Taylor "fighting ships" -- which have military-grade compensators and some armoring, Captain (Ginger) Lewis still needs to get her ship out of the battle space... against battlecruisers.

Where it gets interesting is in the "what if the RMN falls back to Sag-Cs or their next iteration, Nike(s), and David Taylor FSVs?" in terms of new build hulls, with the rest of the GA SD(p) and CLACs as a ready and always up to date reserve.

Then maybe we don't need SD(p)s... at least until the MAlign again raises their evil heads with effective fighting ships out of mystery star system Darius. Then all bets are off.

Fox2! wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:This was effectively answered both in Honor Among Enemies and Torch of Freedom, and finally in Shadow of Victory. Massive missile counts don't mean a whole lot without the armoring schemes that superdreadnoughts receive. To explain:

(1) If Wayfarer had enough armoring, they wouldn't have lost "cargo one" and could have gone on dumping pods until all the RHN battlecruisers are mission killed or detroyed.

(2) If Rozak's ammunition ships had armoring, his ammunition ships at least partially survive and his salvo density stays high enough fast enough to end the battle more quickly.

3) With the Charles Taylor "fighting ships" -- which have military-grade compensators and some armoring, Captain (Ginger) Lewis still needs to get her ship out of the battle space... against battlecruisers.

Where it gets interesting is in the "what if the RMN falls back to Sag-Cs or their next iteration, Nike(s), and David Taylor FSVs?" in terms of new build hulls, with the rest of the GA SD(p) and CLACs as a ready and always up to date reserve.

Then maybe we don't need SD(p)s... at least until the MAlign again raises their evil heads with effective fighting ships out of mystery star system Darius. Then all bets are off.

Instead of trying to repair the doors for Wayfarer's Cargo 1, Honor should have had damage control blow the doors off. Put a beacon on them, if necessary, for post-battle recovery. Back to rolling pods and blowing Peeps into dust bunnies.

You can't put all of the SD(P) and CLACs into Reserve. You need to have a core of officers (and Chiefs, petty officers, and enlisted personnel) who are experienced in SD(P), CLAC and LAC tactics, operations, and maintenance. Simulators may do a lot, but you have to have butts in seats and turning wrenches doing the job on actual equipment. Manticore, Grayson, and the Andermani need to have a couple of squadrons of SD(P) and CLACs in active service for training and experience. Plus rotate active and reservists through training tours on those types. Erehwon and Maya will probably have at least a squadron of each, several wings of LACs, and appropriate scouts and escorts.

There's a picture I have seen of an RN Chief practicing the flight deck dance during an exchange tour on a US carrier. This was before QEII commissioned; the RN had no current need for experience working the most dangerous two acres at sea. But they knew the need would soon be upon them. They didn't wait for QEII and PoW to go to sea to regain and maintain those skills. The GA will need to do the same thing.

locarno24 wrote: Yes, modern warships are comparatively light on plate compared to their WWII equivalents but that's because the real navy ship-killer today is the heavyweight antiship torpedo - which exploits an effect which has no analogue in space warfare (and which above-the-waterline armour arguably makes worse!)

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping, a minor nit--

locarno24 wrote: Yes, modern warships are comparatively light on plate compared to their WWII equivalents but that's because the real navy ship-killer today is the heavyweight antiship torpedo - which exploits an effect which has no analogue in space warfare (and which above-the-waterline armour arguably makes worse!)

Kinda sorta. The real ship-killer is the same as at Midway but worse -- aircraft launched "artillery", either gravity fed bombs [impossible against the US] or over-the-horizon missiles [upgraded versions of the Exocet, Tomahawk, etc].

Since at this point, the Western Allies are effectively the only navies with this capability in full air force deployment, and at least three of them [the US, UK, and France] have ICBM launching ballistic submarines, an enemy force's only choice is to try to sink all of the US carriers and take out the US shipyards at the same time. Triggering a longer World War III even if no nukes are ever used.

This is why China is working so hard to come up with "area denial" weapon classes to push the US carriers and planes, etc. out of the South China Sea. Which I don't think is possible anyway, for about 70 reasons, also known as B52s and B-2s. Area denial works two ways and there is no way for China to move enough land-control military Force anywhere except into Indochina. Because things like allied peninsula(s) [Korea] and islands [Japan, the Marianas, and the Philippines plus Malaysia and Indonesia] and continents [Australia] make MARVELOUS carriers.

Fox2! wrote:Instead of trying to repair the doors for Wayfarer's Cargo 1, Honor should have had damage control blow the doors off. Put a beacon on them, if necessary, for post-battle recovery. Back to rolling pods and blowing Peeps into dust bunnies.

SharkHunter wrote:I'm wondering if there is a role for a ship that would admittedly be a bit of both worlds and not necessarily better, mainly because a Sag-C + an FSV is quite lethal. What think ye all of a ship the size of the new Nike-class with the ability to shunt pods out of say the back 25-30% or whatever percentage you decide... interesting weapons mix or no?

I'm primarily thinking about actions like Hypatia, by the way. If Phantom had the ability to drop a few pod-based salvos in between or in conjunction with every 4-5 rounds before their control links were going to be savaged by the arrival of the SLN mega-salvo, wouldn't that have ruined Hadju Gyozo's day even worse?

SharkHunter wrote:I'm wondering if there is a role for a ship that would admittedly be a bit of both worlds and not necessarily better, mainly because a Sag-C + an FSV is quite lethal. What think ye all of a ship the size of the new Nike-class with the ability to shunt pods out of say the back 25-30% or whatever percentage you decide... interesting weapons mix or no?

I'm primarily thinking about actions like Hypatia, by the way. If Phantom had the ability to drop a few pod-based salvos in between or in conjunction with every 4-5 rounds before their control links were going to be savaged by the arrival of the SLN mega-salvo, wouldn't that have ruined Hadju Gyozo's day even worse?

Jonathan_S wrote:I could possible make an argument for a 1.5 - 2.5 mton ammo ship design being a useful add on to a CL or CA squadron. But it'd be one with only strategic military speed - to keep costs somewhat affordable it'd omit defenses and high tactical speed. It's job is to power-up and hand off pods to the cruiser and then stay way the hell out of the way. (Either pop off into hyper or hide deep in the system - depending on mission profile). But then it wouldn't be rolling pods between enemy salvos because if you need a ship to do that you probably need a real BC(P) or SD(P).