Honor/Hamish/Emily

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I am not so certain that Emily would have preferred that things remain the same.

She was criplled and confined to a wheelchair. All of my jesting about Emily's mouth still being functional aside, there probably were medical reasons why not even that was possible. This would explain her tolerance for professional coutessans. More importantly, Emilly could not have children. Having an heir is a HUGE issue in an aristocratic society. Weber makes it clear that Emily has strong maternal instincts.

Emily had almost certainly participated in formal diplomatic functions involving Grayson. She had probably met Protector Benjamin, and his wives. Polygamy just like monogamy can enable abuse, but Weber portrays Protector Benjamin's marriage very positively. Benjamin loves his wives and his wives love him. His wives love each other and they love their sister wives children as well as their own.

I can easily believe that observing polygamist marriage among Graysons might have inspired Emily to consider polygamy as a possible solution to her own dilemma even before the scandal erupted. She gets to preserve her own marriage complete with the financial, social and political benefits. It seems that she continues to benefit emotionally from her husband. She also benefits emotionally from Honor. She gets to be a co mother to Honor's children. When she has children of her own, Honor is the co mother. Honor is also a profoundly powerful protector for her children, with or without 8th Fleet behind her.

cthia wrote:Tlb;
I am not attacking Honor and Hamish. I like them both. Sometimes I say what seems to be awful things about Honor. I understand your resentment there. But I do not say these things because I actually feel them deep down inside. I say them because I love her, and I have been in love with Honor Harrington for years. She and I understand each other, and I'm allowed to say such things. She'd agree, but that would be kissing and telling.

BTW, thanks for the wall of battle, er, text. I know the effort that takes.

ThinksMarkedly;
Of all the posts, your bottom line is the one I can most accept. And I agree, if Emily had a choice, she would not have invited Honor into the relationship.

Yes, human nature is malleable. Indeed, that is the nature, of human nature--to adapt, to learn, to live, to grow. But I'm afraid your view isn't quite complete, and possibly misleading.

Human nature is indeed malleable. Like metal, it can be altered, it can be extended. What the Honorverse has done, is it has "extended" the x-axis as to what can be plotted on it, the horizons of human nature has widened. But the mindset about the origin has not changed. Again, the fact that marriage still exists proves that.

Human nature may have grown to include the very lax mores of Beowulf, but it will always also entertain the "Puritan" mindset of present day man. See Sphinx. See Gryphon. See, Grayson.

****** *

Again, most of you are having a problem with human nature and the human element. It is indeed malleable, but the more human nature changes, the more it remains the same. In this case, you are not looking far enough under the skirt of this subject . . .

What were Emily's options?

What options were Emily left with? Textev pretty much says that Emily had chosen to become a political force in the Star Kingdom. She had become one of its most beloved and influential people. As witnessed by today's celebrities, that popularity becomes a platform to effect change. The responsibility that lives at the core of someone who epitomizes the very essence of morals, scruples, and values, like Emily, burns hot. I also imagine her political life gave her purpose.

High Ridge's cronies brewed a scandal that could have severely damaged the beloved Salamander's creditability. It could have severely damaged the naval officer in Hamish Alexander. It could have severely damaged the husband of one of the most beloved women in the Star Kingdom, and severely hurt and embarrassed that woman as well. It could have severely hampered current politics and the war fighting effort.

Emily knew all of that. What was she to do, allow High Ridge to win? Allow the war effort to be sacrificed?

Was she to allow herself to be used like a pawn in someone else's sordid plans? Was she supposed to destroy the reputation of her husband, hence by association her legacy as well?

Emily was one of the most beloved aristocrats residing at one of the most prestigious addresses in the Star Kingdom. Was she supposed to destroy that legacy at it's foundation? Was she supposed to cut off her nose to spite her face? Emily was faced with the same sordid, barren choices, as the jurors faced in the trial of Pavel Young. As Beth faced between protecting the needs of the one, Honor, and the needs of her entire Star Kingdom.

Sure, Emily is the one who ultimately supported the two of them, but it was a testament to what lies at the heart of Emily. It was a testament to her grasp of politics. And to her love for her Star Kingdom and for her husband. And to her reputation. I don't doubt that she grew to love Honor. Honor is a lovable person, and if I'm allowed to kiss and tell just this once, I can verify that. But, truly, what choice did Emily have?

Having said all of that, I agree with TM. Emily would have preferred that things remain the same. But circumstances targeted that preference like an Apollo missile. And Emily's love for her Star Kingdom was not suicidal.

The lion's share of Emily's first several chats with Honor upon inviting her to White Haven, was solely centered around politics.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I expect that's what's in their wills, but if such wills didn't exist, Raoul is Hamish's first born any way and would inherit White Haven.

Peregrinator wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I expect that's what's in their wills, but if such wills didn't exist, Raoul is Hamish's first born any way and would inherit White Haven.

Assuming that Hamish and Honor's "marriage" is considered (a) valid and (b) not morganatic under Manticoran law and custom where the inheritance of titles is concerned.

Chapter 30 wrote:"The thing is, Honor," Emily continued, reclaiming her attention, "the Reverend's come up with a solution for all our problems. Every one of them."
"He's what?" Both of Honor's eyebrows rose, and she looked back and forth between Sullivan, Hamish and Emily, and her parents. "That's . . . hard to believe."
"Not really," Emily said, with a sudden, huge smile and a matching internal swell of delight. "You see, Honor, all you have to do is answer one question."
"One question?"
Honor blinked as her eyes prickled suddenly and unexpectedly. She didn't even know why—just that the joy inside Emily had reached out and blended with a matching tide of joyous anticipation from Hamish into something so strong, so exuberant and yet so intensely focused on her, that her own emotions literally couldn't help responding to it.
"Yes," Emily said softly. "Honor, will you marry Hamish and me?"
For an instant that seemed an eternity Honor simply stared at her. Then it penetrated, and she jerked upright in her comfortable chair.
"Marry you?" Her voice trembled. "Marry both of you? Are . . . are you serious?"
"Of course we are," Hamish said quietly, while Samantha purred from the high chair beside him as if the bones were about to vibrate right out of her body. "And if anyone can be certain of that," he added, "you can."
"But . . . but . . ." Honor looked at Archbishop Telmachi and Father O'Donnell, finally understanding why they were both here. "But I thought your marriage vows made that impossible," she said hoarsely.
"If I may, My Lord?" Telmachi said gently, looking at Hamish, and Hamish nodded.
"Your Grace," the Archbishop continued, turning to Honor, "Mother Church has learned a great deal over the millennia. Many things about human beings and their spiritual needs never change, and God, of course, is always constant. But the context in which those humans confront their spiritual needs does change. The rules evolved to handle those needs in a preindustrial, pre-space civilization simply cannot be applied to the galaxy in which we live today, any more than could the one-time religious ratification of slavery, or of the denial of the rights of women, or the prohibition of women in the priesthood, or the marriage of priests.
"Hamish and Emily chose to wed monogamously. The Church didn't require that of them, for we've learned that what truly matters is the love between partners, the union which makes it a true marriage, and not simply a convenience of the flesh. But that was their decision, and at the time, I believe it was the proper one for them. Certainly, anyone looking at them or speaking with them today, after all their marriage has endured, can still see the love and mutual commitment they share.
"But we live in an era of prolong, when men and women live literally for centuries. Just as Mother Church was eventually forced to deal with the tangled problems of genetic engineering and of cloning, she's been forced to acknowledge that when individuals live that long, the likelihood that even binding decisions must be revisited increases sharply.
"The Church doesn't look lightly upon the modification of wedding vows. Marriage is a solemn and a holy state, a sacrament ordained by God. But ours is a loving and an understanding God, and such a God wouldn't punish people to whom He's given the joyous gift of a love as deep as that which binds you, Hamish, and Emily together by forcing you to remain apart. And because the Church believes that, the Church has made provision for the modification of those vows, so long as all parties are in agreement and there's no coercion, no betrayal. I've spoken with Hamish and Emily. I have no question in my mind that they would welcome you into their marriage with unqualified joy. The only question which must be answered before I grant the necessary dispensation is whether or not that's what you most truly and deeply desire."
"I—" Honor's vision wavered, and she blinked back tears. "Of course it's what I desire," she said huskily. "Of course it is! I just never thought, never expected—"
"Forgive me for suggesting it, dear," her mother said gently, rising from her chair to fold her arms about her seated daughter, "but sometimes, much as I love you, you can be just a tiny bit slow."
Honor gurgled with tearful laughter and hugged her mother tightly.
"I know. I know! If I'd ever thought for a minute—" She broke off and looked at Hamish and Emily through her tears. "Of course I'll marry you, both of you! My God, of course I will!"
"Good," Reverend Sullivan said, and smiled when Honor turned to look at him. "It just happens that Robert, here," he waved one hand at Telmachi, "has already granted the necessary dispensation, contingent upon your acceptance of the idea. And it also just happens that Father O'Donnell, here, has brought along his prayerbook and a special license, and that I happen to know the Alexander family chapel just happens to have been given a most thorough cleaning this morning. And it just so happens that at this particular moment there's a representative of Father Church here on Manticore to serve as the temporal witness required for any steadholder's marriage. So since the bride's family," he bowed to include Nimitz and Samantha in that family, "are present, I don't really see any reason why we couldn't get this little formality out of the way tonight."

Chapter 31 wrote:Nimitz looked down at Henke from Honor's shoulder for a moment, and then nodded firmly.
"See? Even your furry minion knows it. Which is one reason this marriage of yours is going to be so good for you. Somehow, I don't see Hamish and Emily Alexander—or Hamish and Emily Alexander-Harrington, I suppose now—letting you get away with that anymore."
Honor considered protesting further, but she didn't. And one reason she didn't, she admitted to herself, was that she wasn't positive she could, and be honest. The notion certainly bore thinking on, at any rate.
"Whatever," she said, instead, smiling at Henke. "But the main thing is that, aside from Mac and my armsmen, you're the only one in the Fleet who knows. I'm going to tell Alice and Alistair, as well, but no one else. Not for a while."
"Marriage licenses and wedding certificates are public records, Honor," Henke pointed out. "You can't keep this one quiet for long."
"Longer than you might think," Honor replied with an urchin-like grin. "Since I'm Steadholder Harrington, and a steadholder outranks a duchess or an earl, the license and certificate are both being filed on Steadholder Harrington's planet of residence. In the Public Records Office of Harrington Steading, as a matter of fact. Reverend Sullivan offered to take care of it for me."
"Well, wasn't that nice of him," Henke said with a matching grin. "I don't suppose they're likely to get temporarily misfiled, are they?"
"No, they aren't," Honor said, more seriously. "They're important official documents, so we're not going to be playing any games with them. But we're also not going to mention to anyone that they're there, and while the records are public, they have to be requested, so we'll know if anyone accesses them." She shrugged. "We couldn't keep it secret forever, even if we wanted to, which we don't. This will just buy a little more time."
"But why buy it in the first place?" Henke frowned. "Like Emily said, this solves all your problems. Except, of course, for the people who're going to suggest that the fact that you're marrying them now probably proves Hayes was right with his original rumors about you and Hamish."
"The main reason is my command and Hamish's position at the Admiralty," Honor admitted. "Hamish's theory is that since the First Lord, unlike the First Space Lord, is a civilian without any authority to issue orders to uniformed personnel, he's not in my direct chain of command, and so there's been no official prohibition against our . . . involvement from the start. Unfortunately, that's currently just his opinion. Before we go public, we want to be certain the courts are going to agree with him."
"And if they don't?" Henke frowned again. Rules-lawyering was very unlike the Honor Harrington she'd always known.
"And if they don't, the solution's relatively simple. I resign my Manticoran commission, and High Admiral Matthews makes Admiral Steadholder Harrington available to the Alliance to command Eighth Fleet. That we know would be legal, since there's no similar prohibition in Grayson service. But it would be complicated and an obvious case of finding a way to technically comply with the law, and we'd all prefer to simply find out that what we're doing is legal in the first place under the Star Kingdom's Articles of War."

Peregrinator wrote:Assuming that Hamish and Honor's "marriage" is considered (a) valid and (b) not morganatic under Manticoran law and custom where the inheritance of titles is concerned.

tlb wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:Assuming that Hamish and Honor's "marriage" is considered (a) valid and (b) not morganatic under Manticoran law and custom where the inheritance of titles is concerned.

According to Merriam-Webster, morganatic is defined as "of, relating to, or being a marriage between a member of a royal or noble family and a person of inferior rank in which the rank of the inferior partner remains unchanged and the children of the marriage do not succeed to the titles, fiefs, or entailed property of the parent of higher rank".

Since Honor has a higher rank in both Manticore and Grayson societies, I am not sure that the word applies; unless you are worried that Hamish's rank is too inferior.

Peregrinator wrote:I wasn't quite sure of the precise word to use, I chose "morganatic" because it seemed the best for when the children of the marriage are excluded from succession. I doubt rank matters much under Manticoran law; but a polygynous union might.

tlb wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:I wasn't quite sure of the precise word to use, I chose "morganatic" because it seemed the best for when the children of the marriage are excluded from succession. I doubt rank matters much under Manticoran law; but a polygynous union might.

I simply do not understand how you can question the legality of a polygamous marriage under Manticoran law. The churchmen do not question it, Michelle Henke does not question it; the only legal question that Honor and her lawyer are worried about is whether Hamish is considered to be in the chain of command, which would bar Honor from serving in her Manticoran rank.

Please find somewhere in the books where anyone considers Honor's marriage to Hamish and Emily to be less than legal.