Honor/Hamish/Emily

cthia wrote:Please! Stop putting words in my mouth, a constant habit of yours. I never said the maid was the leak.

Show me textev where Emily silenced the maid, or put her in her place. I may have missed it, and I'd really like to reread it, if it exists.

PS. You were the first person to mention "the maid" as evidence for shenanigans in this thread, on what shows as pages 1 & 4 as I read it.

cthia wrote:Regardless of any other considerations, I think it's very difficult not to sympathize with Emily, if you know her story. Which is why that notion goes for us readers, as well as Emily's extensive domestic help. And, truth be told, I hated the fact that Honor appeared to become a home wrecker, as well. Nobody likes a homewrecker. Least of all, the maid.

When you consider Emily had to watch the two of them touching and flirting from a wheelchair doesn't seem fair at all. Possibly even cruel. At least with Honor, Hamish showed a little. . .good taste? She was the pride of the fleet.

One thing it did do is show what Emily is made of.

cthia wrote:And if anybody really thinks that Emily was absolutely, totally okay with sharing her husband, and the little time she got with her husband, with another woman, in her own home, behind closed doors shutting her out. Please. Simply because she bit the bullet and put forth a good front tells no true tale.

The maid was angry because she knew Emily was hurting. Emily never silenced her. Emily knew if she fought it, she'd lose the horn dog.

There was nothing to silence, since the "domestic help" were not the source of the manufactured scandal.

From earlier in the thread, someone kind of refers to Emily's child as the "spare" in the inheritance process, aka similar to how William is the next King of England, Harry was "the spare" until William's child was born etc. etc.

Keeping in mind that they were working out who would inherit in Grayson, the answer worked out probably would be something like " probably that in the event of HH's death, Raoul inherits the steadholdership, in the event of Hamish' death, Emily's child would inherit White Haven". Anything past that would likely be defined only in the case of the death of an entire side of HH's lineage including her siblings (the twins, Faith and Jame), or Hamish' entire lineage including Willie, etc.

Thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:Keeping in mind that they were working out who would inherit in Grayson, the answer worked out probably would be something like " probably that in the event of HH's death, Raoul inherits the steadholdership, in the event of Hamish' death, Emily's child would inherit White Haven". Anything past that would likely be defined only in the case of the death of an entire side of HH's lineage including her siblings (the twins, Faith and Jame), or Hamish' entire lineage including Willie, etc.

Thoughts?

I expect that's what's in their wills, but if such wills didn't exist, Raoul is Hamish's first born any way and would inherit White Haven.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Keeping in mind that they were working out who would inherit in Grayson, the answer worked out probably would be something like " probably that in the event of HH's death, Raoul inherits the steadholdership, in the event of Hamish' death, Emily's child would inherit White Haven". Anything past that would likely be defined only in the case of the death of an entire side of HH's lineage including her siblings (the twins, Faith and Jame), or Hamish' entire lineage including Willie, etc.

Thoughts?

I expect that's what's in their wills, but if such wills didn't exist, Raoul is Hamish's first born any way and would inherit White Haven.

Raoul is heir to the Duchy of Harrington and the County of White Haven in Manticore, and the Harrington Steading in Grayson. If he pre-deceases Honor, Faith becomes Duchess and Steadholder Harrington on Honor's death, followed by James. If he pre-deceases Hamish, Katherine becomes Countess White Haven when Hamish dies. Emily's unborn child is Katherine's heir, at least until she has children.

Any further children of Hamish and Honor would follow Raoul as heirs to the Harrington titles, and Emily's second child in the White Haven succession.

It is possible that Raoul might abdicate White Haven in favor of Katherine. Or Elizabeth and Benjamin might use a joint decree settling the various Harrington and Alexander successions.

Fox2! wrote:Raoul is heir to the Duchy of Harrington and the County of White Haven in Manticore, and the Harrington Steading in Grayson. If he pre-deceases Honor, Faith becomes Duchess and Steadholder Harrington on Honor's death, followed by James. If he pre-deceases Hamish, Katherine becomes Countess White Haven when Hamish dies. Emily's unborn child is Katherine's heir, at least until she has children.

Any further children of Hamish and Honor would follow Raoul as heirs to the Harrington titles, and Emily's second child in the White Haven succession.

It is possible that Raoul might abdicate White Haven in favor of Katherine. Or Elizabeth and Benjamin might use a joint decree settling the various Harrington and Alexander successions.

I am not sure that is correct, but I am not at all positive. It seems to me that Katherine is also considered to be Honor's child, although not of her blood; because of the joint marriage. We have not been provided with a view of how Manticore answers this question, but my impression of Grayson (from what we have seen of the Protector's family) is that the children are held jointly. If true that would put Katherine second in line to Raoul and definitely ahead of Faith and James. Any further children born of the marriage (including Emily's second) would remain ahead of Honor's siblings.

The big question about what I have just said is "how Grayson would view an heir of Honor, that was not of her blood?". This is something that has not come up before, because the other Steadholders are men.

tlb wrote:

Fox2! wrote:Raoul is heir to the Duchy of Harrington and the County of White Haven in Manticore, and the Harrington Steading in Grayson. If he pre-deceases Honor, Faith becomes Duchess and Steadholder Harrington on Honor's death, followed by James. If he pre-deceases Hamish, Katherine becomes Countess White Haven when Hamish dies. Emily's unborn child is Katherine's heir, at least until she has children.

Any further children of Hamish and Honor would follow Raoul as heirs to the Harrington titles, and Emily's second child in the White Haven succession.

It is possible that Raoul might abdicate White Haven in favor of Katherine. Or Elizabeth and Benjamin might use a joint decree settling the various Harrington and Alexander successions.

I am not sure that is correct, but I am not at all positive. It seems to me that Katherine is also considered to be Honor's child, although not of her blood; because of the joint marriage. We have not been provided with a view of how Manticore answers this question, but my impression of Grayson (from what we have seen of the Protector's family) is that the children are held jointly. If true that would put Katherine second in line to Raoul and definitely ahead of Faith and James. Any further children born of the marriage (including Emily's second) would remain ahead of Honor's siblings.

The big question about what I have just said is "how Grayson would view an heir of Honor, that was not of her blood?". This is something that has not come up before, because the other Steadholders are men.

In polygynous Grayson, all of the children in a household have the same biological father, even if they have different biological mothers. Until Honor, all of the Steadholders have been male, so the Steadholder's heir will be of his blood.

In the Alexander-Harrington household, Hamish is the father of Honor and Emily's children. Which ensures the blood line succession of White Haven through any of his children, Raoul, Katherine, Emily's unborn child, or any future children of Hamish and Honor. Only Raoul, so far, is of Honor's blood, and in succession to the Harrington titles in both Manticore and Grayson. In Grayson, at least, Faith is recognized as Raoul's heir, as she was Honor's (posthumous) heir. Pending, of course, Raoul or Honor having (additional) children.

Ok, everybody has an opinion and thoughts about how the fictional characters thought in situation where two humans get involved.

It's fiction....very entertaining and tolerabley consistant fiction....and this was another of the sometimes long running background lines that add to the conflicts and development of the plot. So it's humans being humans and sometimes things get messy no mater what the "norm" or the accepted or the tolerated social conventions (in a given country, of a certain religion and in this case a number of planets) are in play.

I read it, it worked and was good development and resolved some of the things that had been brought up and reopend a window onto the pettiness, vindictiveness, etc of some of the usual people or groups we see as at least gadflys if no people operating counter to the peace and wellbeing of Manticore etc

Have fun.

Fox2! wrote:In the Alexander-Harrington household, Hamish is the father of Honor and Emily's children. Which ensures the blood line succession of White Haven through any of his children, Raoul, Katherine, Emily's unborn child, or any future children of Hamish and Honor. Only Raoul, so far, is of Honor's blood, and in succession to the Harrington titles in both Manticore and Grayson. In Grayson, at least, Faith is recognized as Raoul's heir, as she was Honor's (posthumous) heir. Pending, of course, Raoul or Honor having (additional) children.

I agree that is also possible. My point was that we do not know, because RFC has not written on the legal consequences for the children of a group marriage in Manticore. Because this is also a first for Grayson, we do not actually know what will result there either. The point is that if the law in Manticore is that Katherine is also considered to be a child of Honor, then Grayson may have to accept it; because they honor each other's laws.

This might be an appropriate time to enter a defense of an idea that has been disparaged. Canon is defined by the Urban Dictionary as "A piece of work -usually in reference to literature- that was written by the original author. Spin-offs, fan fiction, and any work not written by the original author of that fictional universe is considered non-canon.". Canon in the Honorverse is every novel or short story authored (or coauthored) by David Weber (aka RFC aka runsforcelery) and those various explanations he has made about the Honorverse. It also has to include those short stories by Eric Flint which described characters and situations that fed directly into the novels which he coauthored with RFC. Other stories in the anthologies, although interesting, need not be canon if they do not influence anything by RFC (yes, I am talking about "A ship called Francis" and "Let's go to Prague").

The importance of canon is that it mediates any disagreement between posters in the forum, for example: the question whether Honor committed a war crime by demanding that surrendering ships do not scrub their computers (short answer: no). The limitation of canon is that is does not address certain questions, when that happens the sides can only be judged by less cerain means until RFC makes a pronouncement.

tlb wrote:Other stories in the anthologies, although interesting, need not be canon if they do not influence anything by RFC (yes, I am talking about "A ship called Francis" and "Let's go to Prague").

Wait, you're saying that other ships do not hold potato sack races on Axial One (Deck 00 on Solarian ships)? I'm shocked!

Tlb;
I am not attacking Honor and Hamish. I like them both. Sometimes I say what seems to be awful things about Honor. I understand your resentment there. But I do not say these things because I actually feel them deep down inside. I say them because I love her, and I have been in love with Honor Harrington for years. She and I understand each other, and I'm allowed to say such things. She'd agree, but that would be kissing and telling.

BTW, thanks for the wall of battle, er, text. I know the effort that takes.

ThinksMarkedly;
Of all the posts, your bottom line is the one I can most accept. And I agree, if Emily had a choice, she would not have invited Honor into the relationship.

Yes, human nature is malleable. Indeed, that is the nature, of human nature--to adapt, to learn, to live, to grow. But I'm afraid your view isn't quite complete, and possibly misleading.

Human nature is indeed malleable. Like metal, it can be altered, it can be extended. What the Honorverse has done, is it has "extended" the x-axis as to what can be plotted on it, the horizons of human nature has widened. But the mindset about the origin has not changed. Again, the fact that marriage still exists proves that.

Human nature may have grown to include the very lax mores of Beowulf, but it will always also entertain the "Puritan" mindset of present day man. See Sphinx. See Gryphon. See, Grayson.

****** *

Again, most of you are having a problem with human nature and the human element. It is indeed malleable, but the more human nature changes, the more it remains the same. In this case, you are not looking far enough under the skirt of this subject . . .

What were Emily's options?

What options were Emily left with? Textev pretty much says that Emily had chosen to become a political force in the Star Kingdom. She had become one of its most beloved and influential people. As witnessed by today's celebrities, that popularity becomes a platform to effect change. The responsibility that lives at the core of someone who epitomizes the very essence of morals, scruples, and values, like Emily, burns hot. I also imagine her political life gave her purpose.

High Ridge's cronies brewed a scandal that could have severely damaged the beloved Salamander's creditability. It could have severely damaged the naval officer in Hamish Alexander. It could have severely damaged the husband of one of the most beloved women in the Star Kingdom, and severely hurt and embarrassed that woman as well. It could have severely hampered current politics and the war fighting effort.

Emily knew all of that. What was she to do, allow High Ridge to win? Allow the war effort to be sacrificed?

Was she to allow herself to be used like a pawn in someone else's sordid plans? Was she supposed to destroy the reputation of her husband, hence by association her legacy as well?

Emily was one of the most beloved aristocrats residing at one of the most prestigious addresses in the Star Kingdom. Was she supposed to destroy that legacy at it's foundation? Was she supposed to cut off her nose to spite her face? Emily was faced with the same sordid, barren choices, as the jurors faced in the trial of Pavel Young. As Beth faced between protecting the needs of the one, Honor, and the needs of her entire Star Kingdom.

Sure, Emily is the one who ultimately supported the two of them, but it was a testament to what lies at the heart of Emily. It was a testament to her grasp of politics. And to her love for her Star Kingdom and for her husband. And to her reputation. I don't doubt that she grew to love Honor. Honor is a lovable person, and if I'm allowed to kiss and tell just this once, I can verify that. But, truly, what choice did Emily have?

Having said all of that, I agree with TM. Emily would have preferred that things remain the same. But circumstances targeted that preference like an Apollo missile. And Emily's love for her Star Kingdom was not suicidal.

The lion's share of Emily's first several chats with Honor upon inviting her to White Haven, was solely centered around politics.