Honor/Hamish/Emily

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I am going to restate something I've said several times over. I'm willing to bet the quick fix of having the wedding vow's rewritten, isn't really as simple a fix as that. It might have broken more than it fixed. How is it working out at the center of Emily's and Hamish's religion, their church? Their faith? What problems is it causing the church? What effect did it have on Emily, spirituality? Did she feel she had wronged God, and forsaken the traditional beliefs, her traditional beliefs?

Emily was swept up in a whirlwind romance that wasn't hers. She was rushed to the altar, with Honor and Hamish.

Since the idea of changing the wedding vows was presented to Honor, Emily and Hamish by leading churchmen from Grayson and Manticore; all the anguish you express is clearly your own, and not that of anyone in the books. If it were all the bother that you think it is, then the leaders of the churches would have been among the first to object.

You can't have meant this as it reads. You mean to say that Emily, or any spouse, should be amenable to bringing someone else into the marriage simply because it's presented to them by some clergymen in some church on some other planet? My God, man, what are you saying? I certainly didn't know you were so religious. Cool.

At any rate, I'm sure there would be lots of people, who would object if even God himself came down and decreed it. Like he did with the Virgin Mary.

cthia wrote:I am going to restate something I've said several times over. I'm willing to bet the quick fix of having the wedding vow's rewritten, isn't really as simple a fix as that. It might have broken more than it fixed. How is it working out at the center of Emily's and Hamish's religion, their church? Their faith? What problems is it causing the church? What effect did it have on Emily, spirituality? Did she feel she had wronged God, and forsaken the traditional beliefs, her traditional beliefs?

Emily was swept up in a whirlwind romance that wasn't hers. She was rushed to the altar, with Honor and Hamish.

tlb wrote:Since the idea of changing the wedding vows was presented to Honor, Emily and Hamish by leading churchmen from Grayson and Manticore; all the anguish you express is clearly your own, and not that of anyone in the books. If it were all the bother that you think it is, then the leaders of the churches would have been among the first to object.

cthia wrote:You can't have meant this as it reads. You mean to say that Emily, or any spouse, should be amenable to bringing someone else into the marriage simply because it's presented to them by some clergymen in some church on some other planet? My God, man, what are you saying? I certainly didn't know you were so religious. Cool.

At any rate, I'm sure there would be lots of people, who would object if even God himself came down and decreed it. Like he did with the Virgin Mary.

No, that is not what I am saying; but I am not surprised by your misreading. Let me extract the relevant portion of your original comment and try explain in simpler words.

I'm willing to bet the quick fix of having the wedding vow's rewritten, isn't really as simple a fix as that. It might have broken more than it fixed. How is it working out at the center of Emily's and Hamish's religion, their church? Their faith? What problems is it causing the church? What effect did it have on Emily, spirituality? Did she feel she had wronged God, and forsaken the traditional beliefs, her traditional beliefs?

You are stating that changing wedding vows strikes at the very basis of Emily and Hamish's church and faith. You then state, if that is true, that Emily must feel that she had wronged God, and forsaken her traditional beliefs.

The first statement is not true on either Manticore or Grayson, as proven by the fact that leading clergymen from both Manticore and Grayson have proposed it. Clearly that proposal was not a command and could have been rejected by any of the three (especially Emily). They did not reject it, instead assented to a new wedding. Since the first statement is not true and I believe that they had a wedding in the eyes of the church; then clearly Emily does NOT feel that she had wronged God, and forsaken her traditional beliefs.

PS. I am still waiting for the religious schism on Grayson that will destroy the Protector's Restoration, that was to have been driven by Honor's cheating as his Champion.

The leaders of the church may have objected if they knew, that Emily wasn't comfortable with it. If indeed Emily wasn't comfortable with it. And if she would have shared that truth, thus, making her a spoil sport, or fly in the ointment. It isn't as if Honor herself ever held back the real truth.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:I am going to restate something I've said several times over. I'm willing to bet the quick fix of having the wedding vow's rewritten, isn't really as simple a fix as that. It might have broken more than it fixed. How is it working out at the center of Emily's and Hamish's religion, their church? Their faith? What problems is it causing the church? What effect did it have on Emily, spirituality? Did she feel she had wronged God, and forsaken the traditional beliefs, her traditional beliefs?

Emily was swept up in a whirlwind romance that wasn't hers. She was rushed to the altar, with Honor and Hamish.

tlb wrote:Since the idea of changing the wedding vows was presented to Honor, Emily and Hamish by leading churchmen from Grayson and Manticore; all the anguish you express is clearly your own, and not that of anyone in the books. If it were all the bother that you think it is, then the leaders of the churches would have been among the first to object.

cthia wrote:You can't have meant this as it reads. You mean to say that Emily, or any spouse, should be amenable to bringing someone else into the marriage simply because it's presented to them by some clergymen in some church on some other planet? My God, man, what are you saying? I certainly didn't know you were so religious. Cool.

At any rate, I'm sure there would be lots of people, who would object if even God himself came down and decreed it. Like he did with the Virgin Mary.

No, that is not what I am saying; but I am not surprised by your misreading. Let me extract the relevant portion of your original comment and try explain in simpler words.

I'm willing to bet the quick fix of having the wedding vow's rewritten, isn't really as simple a fix as that. It might have broken more than it fixed. How is it working out at the center of Emily's and Hamish's religion, their church? Their faith? What problems is it causing the church? What effect did it have on Emily, spirituality? Did she feel she had wronged God, and forsaken the traditional beliefs, her traditional beliefs?

You are stating that changing wedding vows strikes at the very basis of Emily and Hamish's church and faith. You then state, if that is true, that Emily must feel that she had wronged God, and forsaken her traditional beliefs.

The first statement is not true on either Manticore or Grayson, as proven by the fact that leading clergymen from both Manticore and Grayson have proposed it. Clearly that proposal was not a command and could have been rejected by any of the three (especially Emily). They did not reject it, instead assented to a new wedding. Since the first statement is not true and I believe that they had a wedding in the eyes of the church; then clearly Emily does NOT feel that she had wronged God, and forsaken her traditional beliefs.

PS. I am still waiting for the religious schism on Grayson that will destroy the Protector's Restoration, that was to have been driven by Honor's cheating as his Champion.

Never said that at all. I'm simply throwing out the caution flag, in quick races to post before thinking.

tlb wrote:Since the idea of changing the wedding vows was presented to Honor, Emily and Hamish by leading churchmen from Grayson and Manticore; all the anguish you express is clearly your own, and not that of anyone in the books. If it were all the bother that you think it is, then the leaders of the churches would have been among the first to object.

I mean, yes, I am disagreeing with the characters in the books and their fictional religious leaders. I don't think the argument you've made works in real life; people tend to be non-confrontational and go along to get along, and many religious leaders strike one as rather milquetoast (and lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I'm as guilty of this as anyone!). So the argument works even less when we're talking about fictional characters, who may or may not act like we wish they did in real life.

cthia wrote:Preconceived notions is your thing.

Is it?

You applied your preconceived notions about marriage to a fictional story set 2000 years in the future.

Shall I reiterate your extremely indignant rant about Emily, Hamish and Honor? I thought it clearly showed that you already decided that poor Emily was ganged up on by Hamish and Honor, and she had to acquiesce to the situation at hand.

Perhaps it escaped you, but Emily is portrayed in the books as a strong woman who is used to get her way. If you for one moment think that she would be "swept up" and "rushed" to the altar by the situation, you are dead wrong.

Sometimes I do wonder if we really have read the same books.

cthia wrote:The leaders of the church may have objected if they knew, that Emily wasn't comfortable with it. If indeed Emily wasn't comfortable with it. And if she would have shared that truth, thus, making her a spoil sport, or fly in the ointment. It isn't as if Honor herself ever held back the real truth.

Are you really using maybe's and what if's that has no relevance to what's in the books to debate the merit of your argument??

tlb wrote:Since the idea of changing the wedding vows was presented to Honor, Emily and Hamish by leading churchmen from Grayson and Manticore; all the anguish you express is clearly your own, and not that of anyone in the books. If it were all the bother that you think it is, then the leaders of the churches would have been among the first to object.

Peregrinator wrote:I mean, yes, I am disagreeing with the characters in the books and their fictional religious leaders. I don't think the argument you've made works in real life; people tend to be non-confrontational and go along to get along, and many religious leaders strike one as rather milquetoast (and lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I'm as guilty of this as anyone!). So the argument works even less when we're talking about fictional characters, who may or may not act like we wish they did in real life.

We can only judge these characters as though they were real people; to say that less applies when they are fictional seems to mean that you do not think that RFC can write characters that are true to life. I have heard it stated that he might have trouble writing political views other that his own; but the characters expressing them seem real enough to me.

Many religious leaders might be non-confrontational, but would they be the ones to propose a solution to the people involved or would they hold back if that was their mindset?

If Emily is so non-confrontation and eager to please, then we can only judge by the outcome. Did she seem unhappy with the new marriage? Based on what I have read, she seemed happy enough and very happy to have a child.

cthia wrote:Preconceived notions is your thing.

Joat42 wrote:Is it?

You applied your preconceived notions about marriage to a fictional story set 2000 years in the future.

Shall I reiterate your extremely indignant rant about Emily, Hamish and Honor? I thought it clearly showed that you already decided that poor Emily was ganged up on by Hamish and Honor, and she had to acquiesce to the situation at hand.

Perhaps it escaped you, but Emily is portrayed in the books as a strong woman who is used to get her way. If you for one moment think that she would be "swept up" and "rushed" to the altar by the situation, you are dead wrong.

Sometimes I do wonder if we really have read the same books.

One thing to remember about Cthia is that he can become deeply involved in the stories. But as a devotee of fanfic, he can start viewing the story as it would have been if he had written parts of it. It certainly is true that we all read books based on our own experiences, so everyone reads a book differently.

The only final argument comes from textual evidence out of the books or out of discussions by the author about the books. I believe the weight of evidence is that Emily is portrayed in the books as a strong willed woman (as you said).

tlb wrote:If Emily is so non-confrontation and eager to please, then we can only judge by the outcome. Did she seem unhappy with the new marriage? Based on what I have read, she seemed happy enough and very happy to have a child.

And it hardly seems Emily is non-confrontational. She's the one who put the rumours from the newsies during the High Ridge administration to bed by coming to Landing and addressing them head on. After she stepped into the scene, no one dared confront her.

If she's not a push-over, does that change your analysis?