Honor/Hamish/Emily

Peregrinator wrote:That Emily consents to her husband's cheating does not make it not cheating.

MC1560 wrote:If you truly love your disabled wife don't cheat on her, even if she gives you permission.

Within a two person social contract, cheating is when one person does something to which the other objects. You may be able to argue that Emily hid her objections to Kuzak and the courtesans; but there was no physical intimacy with Honor prior to Emily urging them to go at it. That was the impulse that eventually resulted in the marriage, so Emily could be said to be part of courting Honor.

tlb wrote:So you are saying (if I understand you correctly) that if a married man has a one night stand every chance that he can; that it will not count as cheating on his wife, provided the action is physical - not emotional. I seriously doubt that you can convince an average wife of that, much less any divorce court which might result.

"Cheating" implies it's done without the consent and knowledge of someone else, against social mores and rules. I'm arguing it wasn't cheating in their case because it looks like Emily consented and knew about it, and society accepted it.

That does not apply to today's world. I've recently read that adultery is defined as a crime in many US states (read: you can go to jail).

In a different situation, "cheating on a test" can often included bringing devices, books or notes into the exam room and perusing those. But there are tests, especially in higher level education, where looking information up is totally acceptable. I've had many tests where I was allowed to bring one A4 sheet of paper, handwritten by me, with any information I cared to have and managed to fit. Those cases were not cheating because it was done with the knowledge and consent of the professor, following the rules.

tlb wrote:So you are saying (if I understand you correctly) that if a married man has a one night stand every chance that he can; that it will not count as cheating on his wife, provided the action is physical - not emotional. I seriously doubt that you can convince an average wife of that, much less any divorce court which might result.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:"Cheating" implies it's done without the consent and knowledge of someone else, against social mores and rules. I'm arguing it wasn't cheating in their case because it looks like Emily consented and knew about it, and society accepted it.

That does not apply to today's world. I've recently read that adultery is defined as a crime in many US states (read: you can go to jail).

In a different situation, "cheating on a test" can often included bringing devices, books or notes into the exam room and perusing those. But there are tests, especially in higher level education, where looking information up is totally acceptable. I've had many tests where I was allowed to bring one A4 sheet of paper, handwritten by me, with any information I cared to have and managed to fit. Those cases were not cheating because it was done with the knowledge and consent of the professor, following the rules.

Okay, I misunderstood you to be saying that a dalliance with Kuzak was cheating; but employing courtesans would not be, because of the lack of emotional content. I now see you are saying that "cheating" depends solely on Emily's attitude - similar to what I wrote in the post after the one you quoted.

Note that there was some social scandal at the suggestion that Honor and Hamish were going at it, so we can not lean too heavily on social mores. The problem was that people thought they were going behind Emily's back.

Don't forget that this universe has 80 year olds looking like and feeling like 20 year olds. Neither forget that multiple wives were the norm in Grayson, or that thousands of years have passed since our time, and values change.
I'm in my 70s, been happily married for about 45 years, but if we were both rejuvenated, and told that we have another 250 years together I'm sure it would change things.
Some Christians puzzle me as they condemn sex before and outside marriage, but accept multiple divorces and marriages. The Bible Belt supports Trump, for an example.

MC1560 wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:That Emily consents to her husband's cheating does not make it not cheating.

If you truly love your disabled wife don't cheat on her, even if she gives you permission.

You may think it's wrong, but it's actually Emily's choice. You are arguing that Emily's choice is wrong because you think it's wrong.

Please tell me when it's okay to force your morals on a relationship between consenting adults that has zero impact on anyone else?

Further, as evidenced by the story, all involved derived happiness from what happened which wasn't true before Emily gave her blessing. Would you rather have that all the involved be miserable instead?

Giving her blessings, doesn't mean Emily was totally happy with the arrangement. Resigning herself to Hamish's infidelity isn't the same as wholeheartedly accepting it. It appears to be more of a "If you can't beat em, join em," kind of thing with Emily. Unless the author says it was totally Emily's idea from the onset, speaking to Hamish and suggesting he acquire the services of a courtesan, I'm not buying it.

And if anybody really thinks that Emily was absolutely, totally okay with sharing her husband, and the little time she got with her husband, with another woman, in her own home, behind closed doors shutting her out. Please. Simply because she bit the bullet and put forth a good front tells no true tale.

The maid was angry because she knew Emily was hurting. Emily never silenced her. Emily knew if she fought it, she'd lose the horn dog.

Joat42 wrote:

MC1560 wrote:Anyone else hate this relationship?
It's terrible what happens to Emily during it.

Honor cheats with her husband, invades her marriage and when Emily dies, takes her husband and children for herself. Her kids even get Honor's last name instead of their mother's.

Sixty years of marriage and no heir. But along comes Honor and suddenly there is one. Honor's son is first in line, Emily's daughter ends up second place.

Honor and Raoul basically usurp and erase Emily and Katherine's place in the family.

Seriously, what the hell?

There where no cheating going on.

Also, what you are describing is from an outsiders indignant viewpoint that disregard everything Emily felt.

Everything Emily felt? Look in the mirror yourself.

Do you truly not realize that Emily is human? She is a real together woman, no doubt. Hamish certainly didn't deserve her. But do you truly think she wasn't hurting a bit inside because of their relationship? Do you really believe there was a button on Emily's chair that she could push, to give her stims that "voila," made her automatically okay with it, internally? Really? Without any of the human element of human nature, like wondering if Honor is making Hamish "coo" or whether he slobbered all over her like a satiated baby, any of the many cute things he used to do with her. Do you think she wasn't hurting when she witnessed Hamish's raging erection battling the fabric of his slacks?

Why? Simply because she is part of a story?

cthia wrote:Everything Emily felt? Look in the mirror yourself.

Do you truly not realize that Emily is human? She is a real together woman, no doubt. Hamish certainly didn't deserve her. But do you truly think she wasn't hurting a bit inside because of their relationship? Do you really believe there was a button on Emily's chair that she could push, to give her stims that "voila," made her automatically okay with it, internally? Really? Without any of the human element of human nature, like wondering if Honor is making Hamish "coo" or whether he slobbered all over her like a satiated baby, any of the many cute things he used to do with her. Do you think she wasn't hurting when she witnessed Hamish's raging erection battling the fabric of his slacks?

Why? Simply because she is part of a story?

All of us are projecting our feelings onto Emily to arrive at an opinion as to whether she felt cheated or not. The only bits of evidence for her actual emotional state are the descriptions provided by the books: we know from the books that Emily provided the spark that began intimate physical relations between Honor and Hamish and that she was happy in the joint marriage. Those facts point to the viewpoint that Emily was more pleased, than displeased, with the addition of Honor to a group marriage. Certainly Emily would be human enough to be unhappy that Hamish could not go to her for his physical needs, but she already had 40 years or so to become reconciled to her disabilities before Honor entered the picture.

Personally, I expect that Emily would be horrified to learn that her maid went to the newsies to spread scandal; but since she did not know about that activity, she could hardly put a stop to it.

ISTR there was a passage in one of the books where Emily confided in Alison that had she been fully fit she might have taken Honor to bed herself, or words to that effect.

tlb wrote:

Peregrinator wrote:That Emily consents to her husband's cheating does not make it not cheating.

MC1560 wrote:If you truly love your disabled wife don't cheat on her, even if she gives you permission.

Within a two person social contract, cheating is when one person does something to which the other objects. You may be able to argue that Emily hid her objections to Kuzak and the courtesans; but there was no physical intimacy with Honor prior to Emily urging them to go at it. That was the impulse that eventually resulted in the marriage, so Emily could be said to be part of courting Honor.

You frequently get tripped up on the purely legal, to the letter, aspect of things.

In the spirit of love, true love, you've already cheated when your dreams are of another woman. Lest you've never been in love, or just forgot.

@ George,
I recall something to that effect as well. It is the impetus behind my question of how far Emily and Honor took their marriage. Emily could adore Honor's body, and she could come to enjoy a play by play, a sort of role play in the manner of girl talk. Surely after she talked with Alison, she may have been apprised on certain things she's missing out on. She could even watch, or give Honor pointers on what drives the horn dog wild.

I think we're getting all up in their business. LOL