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Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore

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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by Star Knight   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:18 am

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kzt wrote:No, all of Manticore is gone. It's all in one platform. When it gets hit with a hundred MDMs it's all gone. Along with all the industrial staff for both Sphinx and MAnticore because the RMN didn't order an evac because reasons.


You did forget the production at Yeltsin. But that's ok, the author forgot about the GSN too when writing AAC.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:50 am

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Star Knight wrote:You did forget the production at Yeltsin. But that's ok, the author forgot about the GSN too when writing AAC.

They don't have Apollo production. The first line was delivered to Blackbird just in time to get all blowed up.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by Star Knight   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:11 am

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kzt wrote:They don't have Apollo production. The first line was delivered to Blackbird just in time to get all blowed up.


They would have set up the lines themselves if Manticore was taken out.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:32 am

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Star Knight wrote:
kzt wrote:They don't have Apollo production. The first line was delivered to Blackbird just in time to get all blowed up.


They would have set up the lines themselves if Manticore was taken out.

Well, then why haven't they? Last we heard, neither the AIN or GSN has Apollo production going. And they were not provided with the design documentation until after someone blew up all the factories.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by Star Knight   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:51 am

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kzt wrote:
Well, then why haven't they?
Because stupid.
Grayson was always faster than Manticore implementing new tech.
The reason why it took them so long is the same reason why the Protectors Own and half of the regular GSN wasn't deployed with Eighth Fleet - the plot demanded it.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:43 am

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Chin realized it quickly but not quickly enough. Had he seen the true potential of Apollo he would have known a beyond-range shot was still lethal and would have hypered out--leaving him free to return with a decent portion of Honor's ammo gone.

Honor would have adopted if they had been doing long range Apollo. But 3rd to second was within the expected range iirc. Honor could had dropped in and just fired everything at 10million km or whatever range is within the time it takes for a RHN SD(p) to get their hyper generator working. 5th would have gotten of some fire, but not very much, and most won’t be guided.

Even at 10 million km your talking about several minutes of flight time. Sure it's shorter than the 4 minutes it takes an SD's hyper generator to work after being activated - but it's long enough to overcome your shock and get several salvos off.

And 8th won't be able to hyper out either - their generators are discharged and will take even longer before able to escape.

So yes it would be a surprise to Chin but it would also be handing her exactly the kind of close range slugfest that Theisman's plan called for - one where the FTL advantages of Apollo are minimized and the greater number of Haven's ships can tell.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:56 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I disagree again. It only showed that mass production was in progress. Again, Theisman would be remiss if he didn't consider that OB killed that missile production.


Oyster Bay didn't happen until 9 months later.

Missiles would also have been forward deployed to Trevor's Star. After all, that's where Eighth Fleet was based. That's where it would rearmed. Eighth wasn't returning to Manticore to rearm and then go back through the Junction. It's far easier to move the pods through the Junction.

The point that you're missing is that neither do the Manties control Haven's orbitals, and as it stands 8th Fleet has to go through the motions to control Peep orbitals. Since Honor knocked out Chin. Eloise may go ahead and throw in the towel, for certain. Without the need for a final sortie by 8th Fleet, however much time that would take, and whatever innovations Shannon prouduced. Honor likes to be clearly decisive, and I don't blame her.

You don't want to have to count on your enemy's sanity being equal to your own.


First of all, stop calling them Peeps. There hadn't been a People's Republic for 7 years. Thinking of them as Peeps was a serious mistake in the Manticoran intelligence and the bad psychology led to bad assumptions and bad decisions. And if there was one officer who wasn't thinking of the Havenites as Peeps any more, it was Honor.

Anyway, as I've said above, if Chin had extricated 90 of the 100 SD(P)s she brought into the battle instead of 30, the extra 60 ships would only be 20% more to the RHN TOE. And many of them had already been damaged, requiring repairs, so they wouldn't be immediately combat-effective. True, Bolthole was churning ships like there was no tomorrow and Theisman had 300 older SDs whose crews could migrate to new SD(P)s, but 700 SD(P)s wouldn't be sufficient to stop the Alliance any more.

Destroying the infrastructure in Manticoran planets would have, since it would have made the Alliance conserve resources (Monica had already happened, so Manticore had to think of what to do with the League). Since that didn't happen, the war ended.

The RMN had been wrecklessly spending their stockpile on wasted demonstrations on a thickheaded gorilla who still didn't get it. One thing 'Cat philosophy would never have adopted is demonstration launches. Apollo missiles were still limited after BoM, that is part of the carrot Eloise used to entice Beth into an alliance so they could "save those godawful missiles for Solarians." I'm not saying Theisman would be correct in the assumption. But what's new on that horizon.

Let's get something straight. Haven has, and always will be, Peeps, to me. I don't like them, and I never will. Perhaps I have a bit more Winton blood coursing through my veins than even Beth. The Peeps were a disgusting lot, with no morals, scruples or values. The leopard's spots will return with a new government. I couldn't have been more upset than when the Federation made peace with the Klingons.

Remember, I'm not suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:49 am

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kzt wrote:No, all of Manticore is gone. It's all in one platform. When it gets hit with a hundred MDMs it's all gone. Along with all the industrial staff for both Sphinx and MAnticore because the RMN didn't order an evac because reasons.


Which is a reason why Theisman would never order such a move. He's too noble to order firing at a platform with millions of people inside. The Alliance did the same: in all systems Cutworm targeted, they had the staff evacuate their industrial installations before blowing them up.

That's why I said: "whoever is in control of the orbitals". RHN needed to have obliterated resistance for about a T-day so they could force an orderly evacuation of all of those platforms before blowing them up.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:30 pm

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I really doubt that. If it’s lose the war or blow up people who are being held hostage on a target, i wouldn’t want to be on that platform.
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Re: Third Fleet and Apollo ships in the Battle of Manticore
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:23 pm

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kzt wrote:I really doubt that. If it’s lose the war or blow up people who are being held hostage on a target, i wouldn’t want to be on that platform.

Even at lower stakes that’s what the Peep raid at Basilisk did. Wasn’t sure they could safely hold the orbitals so they gave the platform occupants every second they could to evacuate — but evacuated or not the Peep’s tired before they were carried out of missile range.
And that was viewed by Manticore as a very clean and honorable approach.

Hephaestus would be given as much time to evacuate as 2nd fleet thought they could safely give them. But come the end of that time they’d destroy the platform before losing the chance.
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