Missing 2nd Battle of Basilisk?

I think that Weber missed an opportunity to have another dramatic battle in Uncompromising Honor.

He had the stage set by having the Duke of Comarty making it's high speed run to Sol with thd expectation that Hammish needs to prevent Honor from committing an EE violation. Since the royal yacht is arriving unannounced, it will almost translate out of hyperspace at a location where it would not be protected by Honor's fleet. It is just as plausible that the Duke of Comarty will find itself within missile range of an SLN squadron as Honor's fleet. Given more range, more powerful SLN ships (BCs?) and a generous supply of handwavium, it can be an interesting battle. The battle is all the more dramatic because Hammish is on a mission to stop Honor from killing many millions of people. The parallels to the battle in OBS where Honor is desperately trying to stop a RHN Q-ship that is trying to call off an attack would have been an interesting dramatic twist.

BTW, was that a mistake or intentional that Weber states in UC that the Duke of Comarty has Keyhole 2 rather than Keyhole 1? If not a mistake, is she loaded with Apollo pods? I would load her with Apollo even if she had only KH1 just so she has the best possible protection.

It's going to be outside the hyper limit. Few SLN ships would be found out there, the odds of it emerging within missile range of one is minuscule.

Loren Pechtel wrote:It's going to be outside the hyper limit. Few SLN ships would be found out there, the odds of it emerging within missile range of one is minuscule.

Good point.

Modify the scenario.

The Duke drops out of hyper retaining maximum velocity and heads in system at majximum accelleration.

Somewhere inside the hyperlimit the Duke encounters some SLN warships that are on alert because of Honor's arrival and prompt attack on SLN cruisers. The SLN warships are out for blood. Positions and velocity vectors make it impossible for the Duke to evade an engagement. The SLN becomes even more aggressive when informed that the Duke is the royal yaycht on an urgent diplomatic mission. Perhaps SLN CO presumes that Queen Elizebeth is on board and has viewed images of her, in profile, so he really wants to... get his hands on here? When informed that the Duke is a heavily armed yaycht, he presumes DD level armament so remains confident that he will not get his ass kicked.

Given the enhanced effectiveness of Apollo pods even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL comm as demonstrated at Spindle, I presume that the Duke is packihg the big guns.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Good point.

Modify the scenario.

The Duke drops out of hyper retaining maximum velocity and heads in system at majximum accelleration.

Somewhere inside the hyperlimit the Duke encounters some SLN warships that are on alert because of Honor's arrival and prompt attack on SLN cruisers. The SLN warships are out for blood. Positions and velocity vectors make it impossible for the Duke to evade an engagement. The SLN becomes even more aggressive when informed that the Duke is the royal yaycht on an urgent diplomatic mission. Perhaps SLN CO presumes that Queen Elizebeth is on board and has viewed images of her, in profile, so he really wants to... get his hands on here? When informed that the Duke is a heavily armed yaycht, he presumes DD level armament so remains confident that he will not get his ass kicked.

Given the enhanced effectiveness of Apollo pods even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL comm as demonstrated at Spindle, I presume that the Duke is packihg the big guns.

Why? The reason he and the ship are there is to restrain Honor, by letting her know that people she cared about are still alive. That can be done from outside the hyperlimit, so why would he chance scratching the paint on the Queen's yacht?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:The Duke drops out of hyper retaining maximum velocity and heads in system at majximum accelleration.

Somewhere inside the hyperlimit the Duke encounters some SLN warships that are on alert because of Honor's arrival and prompt attack on SLN cruisers. The SLN warships are out for blood. Positions and velocity vectors make it impossible for the Duke to evade an engagement. The SLN becomes even more aggressive when informed that the Duke is the royal yaycht on an urgent diplomatic mission. Perhaps SLN CO presumes that Queen Elizebeth is on board and has viewed images of her, in profile, so he really wants to... get his hands on here? When informed that the Duke is a heavily armed yaycht, he presumes DD level armament so remains confident that he will not get his ass kicked.

Given the enhanced effectiveness of Apollo pods even without Keyhole 2 to provide FTL comm as demonstrated at Spindle, I presume that the Duke is packihg the big guns.

First of all, a warship doesn't translate down into n-space at a known spot (a trade route) in a hostile system. It's quite easy to translate a couple million km away from the hyperlimit, plus the hyperlimit itself is a circle 2.4 billion km in circumference, so a simple 10° arc is is still 66 million km wide. Assuming the Duke of Cromarty's CO is not stupid, predicting the locus of the translation is unlikely.

That means any forces that could be nearby are going to likely be ten million km away or more, giving the Duke time to translate back to alpha before the missiles arrive, even considering the hyper generator's cycle time. That solves the problem of translating accidentally close to some SLN force hovering close to the hyperlimit that reacts to the translation without thinking it through.

As for being caught inside the hyperlimit, there's little risk of being surprised: the system is swarming with Ghost Rider drones, so they know where any forces are and whether they're firing. And any SLN forces firing from inside the hyperlimit are signing their death sentences, asking for a spread of Apollo missiles fired from wherever the Grand Fleet is at that moment.

The only risk I see is between the Duke of Cromarty crossing the hyperlimit inbound and being far enough inside it to be out of powered range of a Cataphract-C, launched from an SLN task force that has just translated down. Said force needed to have been somewhere in the system, outside of the hyperlimit, to know where the Duke of Cromarty is headed.

And finally, remember HMS Duke of Cromarty is a 1.7 million ton Agammemnon-class BC(P), albeit with half the missile load. She can defend herself against most SLN forces.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
BTW, was that a mistake or intentional that Weber states in UC that the Duke of Comarty has Keyhole 2 rather than Keyhole 1? If not a mistake, is she loaded with Apollo pods? I would load her with Apollo even if she had only KH1 just so she has the best possible protection.

That has to be a typo that the proofreaders missed.

He makes it plain elsewhere that while Keyhole 1 is about the size of a Shrike, a Keyhole 2 is almost as big as a light cruiser, and wouldn't fit on something the size of a battlecruiser. At least, not until he decides the plot needs it.

Everyone in the Honorverse is already grossly outgunned. The RMN really doesn't need it--better to outfit some Ghost Rider drones with telemetry relays for talking to the Apollo Control Missiles. Send out the drones to get targeting data, then use their comm equipment for the attack missiles. . .
I expect they can move faster than Hermes buoys.

Rob

--snipping--

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
BTW, was that a mistake or intentional that Weber states in UC that the Duke of Comarty has Keyhole 2 rather than Keyhole 1? If not a mistake, is she loaded with Apollo pods? I would load her with Apollo even if she had only KH1 just so she has the best possible protection.

That has to be a typo that the proofreaders missed.

He makes it plain elsewhere that while Keyhole 1 is about the size of a Shrike, a Keyhole 2 is almost as big as a light cruiser, and wouldn't fit on something the size of a battlecruiser. At least, not until he decides the plot needs it.

An early Honorverse BC, no. But the Aggies mass about three times bigger than the Reliants, something like 20x the Courageous class. Just for perspective, I looked up the weights for a C5 military transport vs. an F15E, a ratio of about 15:1. Plus the C-5 can transport nearly its own weight. Anyway, to the point... When I was in my twenties I happened to see those two planes and a number of others in reasonable proximity to each other... The visual difference is profound.

So I have no problem with the idea that they might convert one Agammemnon BC (the Duke of Cromarty) to handle at least one KH-2, copious counter missile defenses, and still have plenty of space for the front half of the ship to be QEIII's luxurious personal transport.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
That has to be a typo that the proofreaders missed.

He makes it plain elsewhere that while Keyhole 1 is about the size of a Shrike, a Keyhole 2 is almost as big as a light cruiser, and wouldn't fit on something the size of a battlecruiser. At least, not until he decides the plot needs it.

An early Honorverse BC, no. But the Aggies mass about three times bigger than the Reliants, something like 20x the Courageous class. Just for perspective, I looked up the weights for a C5 military transport vs. an F15E, a ratio of about 15:1. Plus the C-5 can transport nearly its own weight. Anyway, to the point... When I was in my twenties I happened to see those two planes and a number of others in reasonable proximity to each other... The visual difference is profound.

So I have no problem with the idea that they might convert one Agammemnon BC (the Duke of Cromarty) to handle at least one KH-2, copious counter missile defenses, and still have plenty of space for the front half of the ship to be QEIII's luxurious personal transport.

Aggies only mass 2x that of a Flight 1 Reliant.

From HoS

Reliant Class Battlecruiser
Mass: 877,500 tons
Dimensions 712x90x80m

Agamemnon-Class Pod Battlecruiser
Mass: 1,750,750 tons
Dimensions: 815x118x110m

Personally, I'm calling it a typo - IIRC in the discussions David had on the forum, he was adamant that the KHII hardware was too large for a BC, and they would never get them.

has to be a typo.

according to house of steel, squeezing in Keyhole 1 required thinning the armour in ways the RMN doesn't like.

some of the BC(P) losses at Solon were attributed to hits that got through armour weakened to get KH1 in.