Mousetrapping vs Apollo

Mousetrapping vs Apollo

I don't understand how Eighth Fleet can be successfully mousetrapped since it has Apollo. I don't understand why there isn't preventive measures an Apollo armed Fleet can take to prevent such a tactic to be used against it. Like hypering in loaded to the hull with pods.

A large part of my disconnect is not fully understanding the limitations of hypering in-system and David's hyper limit.

But an enemy force hypering in suffers nausea and takes a while to shake off the cobwebs and get its bearing? Which I thought is an inherent weakness which can be exploited.

I understand how an average fleet can be mousetrapped, just not an Apollo armed one, unless piloted by Pavel. What tactical truths am I missing?

I know it's a snotty question, but I barely survived getting crushed by the Crusher and I got my rank through patronage. I may have dated Honor, or Alice or Abigail, or Michelle. But I ain't kissing. And I ain't telling. Besides, we may be getting an influx of newly minted snotties.

I may have had a loooong affair with Stacy and her father had a RUNABOUT built for me. I used it with wreckless abandon. It was stealthy, so I never got caught. LOL

cthia wrote:Mousetrapping vs Apollo

I don't understand how Eighth Fleet can be successfully mousetrapped since it has Apollo. I don't understand why there isn't preventive measures an Apollo armed Fleet can take to prevent such a tactic to be used against it. Like hypering in loaded to the hull with pods.

A large part of my disconnect is not fully understanding the limitations of hypering in-system and David's hyper limit.

But an enemy force hypering in suffers nausea and takes a while to shake off the cobwebs and get its bearing? Which I thought is an inherent weakness which can be exploited.

I understand how an average fleet can be mousetrapped, just not an Apollo armed one, unless piloted by Pavel. What tactical truths am I missing?

I know it's a snotty question, but I barely survived getting crushed by the Crusher and I got my rank through patronage. I may have dated Honor, or Alice or Abigail, or Michelle. But I ain't kissing. And I ain't telling. Besides, we may be getting an influx of newly minted snotties.

I may have had a loooong affair with Stacy and her father had a RUNABOUT built for me. I used it with wreckless abandon. It was stealthy, so I never got caught. LOL

1, when you jump, the hyper equipment has cycle times: cool down, recharge, etc. The bigger the ship, the longer the time. I don't have the times in front of me, but cool down for an SD might be 15 minutes, charge of 8 or so. So a fleet is stuck in normal space for ~25 minutes after it jumps into a system no matter what. A fleet can keep the hyper drive charged for a period of time, but they have to plan for it- and it cannot stay charged indefinitely.

2 most of the interesting stuff is inside the hyper limit. You cannot hyper out no matter what once you cross the line. Earth is 12 light minutes inside Sol's theoretical hyper limit. That's ~180 million km, or well outside even Apollo's effective range. So if you want to attack the interesting stuff, you have to move where you can't just disappear.

So you hyper in, and you are inside of MDM range of someone else; they can fire, let their missiles run for the full nine minutes and you cannot leave. Nor can you leave for another 15 minutes or so (225 salvos). Of course, you can fire back....

And if you hypered in ok, and moved on your target, a defensive fleet could always jump in behind you and pour fire on you; you have to take the fire- you crossed the hyper limit. When you fire back, you can punch above your weight, but if they outnumber you 20 to 1, well....

Thanks for the reply TheEmile,*

1. I have always substituted gravity well for hyper limit, in my mind. Are they indeed interchangeable like I'm thinking?

2. How far inside the hyper limit can a ship jump?

I'm going to ask further questions that may be as kindergarten as I can get, anticipating other nontechies and/or newbies or both, in case they have as much of a problem with the subject matter as I. But are afraid, or embarrassed, to ask. And because my understanding of the subject matter is less than that of a kindergartner's. LOL

One of my elementary school teachers said "Never be afraid to ask questions, because rest assuredly the majority of the class would like to know the same answers but haven't asked because they are afraid to ask, embarrassed, or the question hasn't occurred to them yet. Plus, I don't bite." I'll assume nobody here bites either. Perhaps this thread will morph into another handy reference for newbies.
The books would be more enjoyable if there is a better grasp for certain things.

BTW, I think it was lyonheart who first clued me in on your screen name. Until then, I read it as thee (archaic form of you, as used in the Bible), mile. At any rate, does it indeed refer to that treatise? If so, is the treatise worth it's weight in coins? I just got around to downloading the free PDF from Wikipedia, btw. Procrastination.

At any rate, thanks for being an educator. I hope more peoe with a grasp of the subject will chime in, keeping the fill weight off your shoulders. I don't mind substitute teachers.

Again, speaking for us kindergartners everywhere, thanks.

*Emile, or On Education (French: Émile, ou De l’éducation) is a treatise on the nature of education and on the nature of man written by Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who considered it to be the "best and most important" of all his writings.[1] Due to a section of the book entitled "Profession of Faith of the Savoyard Vicar", Emile was banned in Paris and Geneva and was publicly burned in 1762, the year of its first publication.[2] During the French Revolution, Emile served as the inspiration for what became a new national system of education.

My teacher was right. I am not alone.

I have always substituted gravity well for hyper limit, in my mind. Are they indeed interchangeable like I'm thinking?

It's never been said explicitly, but since basically all 'fake future science' to do with sensors and starship travel in the setting appears to be based on gravity, one assumes so.

Wormholes and Stars both have hyper limits (OBS), and since a wormhole is basically just a gravitational anomaly, it follows the hyper limit is gravitational.

Which probably means technically most stellar bodies have their own hyper limit, it's just that the hyper limit of most stellar bodies that aren't a star sit inside the much bigger hyper limit of the star they're orbiting.

How far inside the hyper limit can a ship jump?

So far as we know, you can't.
In practice, there's probably a degree of factor-of-safety or 'round to a sensible number', and with high tech engines and a complete disregard for your own survival you can exit hyperspace within what the book says is the hyper limit. A bit.

Or it might well be a hyperbolic value that the equations tend towards - like the graph of 1/X - such that actually coming out exactly on the hyper limit is something you can never quite manage. There's definitely an absolute hard limit for velocity entering hyperspace - 0.3C - but aside from a reference to 'dimensional shear' it's not said exactly why. It is 'a thing' in the setting, though, and why you can't just run indefinitely and charge your hyper engines whilst you run; you have to stop (ish! 0.3C is hardly slow...) relative to the local gravity well first.

Thanks! You and Theemile have plugged one important hole in my understanding, but unfortunately I see others opening. From here on out, I'm going to use letters to mark my questions. It would help me immensely if your responses are also lettered. I'll leave the numbers for you teachers, in case you want to say things like 1. You're an idiot. Hey, my parents taught me to be considerate. LOL

I now realize we're talking about two different limits. That of the star and that of the planet.

A. When textev talks of hypering in-system, it is referring to inside the star's limit and not inside the planet's hyper limit?

B. Is jumping and hypering synonymous?

C. Are layman's explanations to this subject matter, along with diagrams, found in House of Steel? David includes maps of his univese, but oddly no diagrams of this subject matter. Attempting it myself, I may find out why.

D. I'm attempting a 2D diagram for my own edification. I've traced a saucer in red ink on a piece of notebook paper to represent the hyper limit of Manticore's star. At the center of that huge red circle, I traced a dime (also in red ink) to represent the sun. I traced a quarter (black ink) inside the larger red circle to represent the hyper limit of the planet, happily orbiting it's sun. At the center of the quarter is a dot representing Manticore. So far so good?

A. You cannot enter (or exit) hyperspace inside the hyper limit. What they mean is short ranged hyperspace movement where you manuver around the local area in hyper, but entrance and exit of hyper has to be outside the byperlimit.

kzt wrote:A. You cannot enter (or exit) hyperspace inside the hyper limit. What they mean is short ranged hyperspace movement where you manuver around the local area in hyper, but entrance and exit of hyper has to be outside the byperlimit.

Thanks, but can you make it clearer. Remember, you're talking to a kindergartner, not someone advanced as a 5th grader. Like a girl once told me, the problem isn't you, it's me. It really is me this time. LOL

A. For sake of conversation, is entering or exiting hyperspace synonymous with Star Trek's entering and dropping out of warp?

B. Are you actually saying you can't enter (or exit) hyperspace while you're nside the hyper limit? Carrying the baggage of most sci-fi of not being able to go to warp while inside a planet's gravity well because lots of bad things can happen like the destruction of the planet and/or ship.

Planets inside a star's hyper limit effectively don't have a hyper limit, because their star's hyper limit has overlapped them. Gas giants are sometimes outside their star's hyper limit and generate a hyper limit of their own. Our own Jupiter featured in UH(the only other gas giant hyper limit mentioned was Uriel).

In Jupiter's case, slightly less than 5 light minutes. Sol's hyper limit is approximately 21 light minutes. Jupiter's orbit is ~43 light minutes out from Sol.

The relationship between gravity and hyper limits is one of those things which doesn't quite hold up to close scrutiny.

Jupiter has a thousandth the mass of the Sun, but its hyper limit is quite clearly not a thousandth. More like a quarter or a fifth.

A lets put it this way. From memory the hyper limit for our sun is somewhere between Jupiter and the asteroid belt. Inside of that, no jumping. Outside, just avoid the small limits on the gas giants.

B yes.