The Navy of God against Charis naval superiority

n7axw

no, the bomber masses did NOT achieve that goal
they knew that at the time, they refused to listen
they were told bluntly they needed far far larger fleets to do it, x3 larger as they realised in the end to be precise
but all the info they had at the time showed they were NOT able to achieve anything like their ludicrous claims

German industry dispersed, went underground etc and while reduced, it was not nearly so affected as to come close to the waste of time, money, resources and as noted, the incredibly precious and expensive lives of all those aircrew!

point to consider
aircraft especially need highly intelligent crew
as tech increases, you need smarter and smarter folk to use the tech devices well
hence, even modern armies do NOT want dumbasses, where as once upon a time, a reasonably healthy body would do
thus, WW2 and the enormous loss of life of bomber crews, destroyed the true "flower of the nations" of ALL our countries
men who should have been factory managers, researchers, doctors, scientists, good politicians, whatever, wiped out
the cream of the crop, butchered.
leaving inbred scumbags and jackasses to flower like weeds, no longer competing against COMPETENT and committed people

you can make some argument for mass bombing of japan, but even there it's not as great as is thought in many debates once you go look at the evidence, evidence the bozos in charge KNEW about at the time...and has since been largely ignored because it brings into question the colossal waste of lives
those bomber crews were..."urinated away" to put it in the vernacular

as said, the one very useful thing the bomber fleets could do, was mine laying, that WAS extremely efficient
oh it also very efficiently handed a LOT of money to corporations who have since, oddly enough, come to own the asses of our politicians...funny that, isn't it? :p

memoirs, interviews and talks with those around at the time show the incredibly purblind arrogance and stupidity of the Air Ministry and RAF top brass before and during WW2
absolutely intransigent blockhead scumbags who should have been taken out and SHOT for treason and sabotage, sigh
morons did everything they could to try and stop the Spitfire being adopted because all they wanted and allowed, were more bombers!
they saw fighters or anything else, from the Fleet Air Arm to recon or army observation craft, as a waste of time
remember, tests such as the US did with both dive bombing and vs
ships, and experience of the Spanish Civil War, China-Japan etc had long proven things were nothing like their lunacy of "uber bombers driving enemies to ruin and defeat easily!"

please see the % of bombs that actually hit ANYWHERE near an actual target
how many aircrews were lost
cost of the bombers
cost of that ludicrous Norden bomb sight system
Etc
idjits refused to accept the reality
if in doubt of such myopia and corrupt stupidity, consider...the US torpedo scandal, a triumph of blockheads over national interest and the lives of the men at sea.

sigh such issues are course, always with us, alas, but that's only because we do not flush out and punish these scum
there's no excuse for it, this isn't ancient Rome, and unless we want to collapse like Rome, we need to put a lot of folk today in front of firing squads for the incredible corruption, blunders, waste etc
British military is effectively for example, not worth a tinkers damn nowadays if there is a real conflict or major emergency (smart ones are seriously EXTREMELY worried, to the point of outright fear)
geegaws and nukes and over priced junk, with almost jack squat stores left, or protection of the coast with the army dispersed to every corner of the globe and cut to ludicrous levels, and so on and so on.

lol nowadays, I've often said we may as well be dropping GOLD BARS on the likes of ISIS etc due to the mad costs involved, yeesh!

lessons learned from WW1 and 2, etc are not being considered.
those were not "triumphs", those were horrendous DISASTERS that had no reason to be anything like as bad if not for the intransigent stupidity arrogance and corruption of those in power
all that matters nowadays in the Halls of Power, is that the Elite are spared having to pay any tax or face the Rule of Law
and we know where THAT leads.
I for one do not wish to live through the "Fall of Rome MKII" ! :p


back to Safehold, lol, some fun and sanity!
Emperor Zhou-Zwo is gonna waste a fortune on his "risikiflotte" because that and other things will spiral in costs materiele, money, time and lives.
but hey, he's a scumbag and if he ends up being hung by his ankles from a petrol (Praigyr?) station by enraged South Harchong folk one day...that's ok!

SilverbladeTE wrote:n7axw

no, the bomber masses did NOT achieve that goal
they knew that at the time, they refused to listen
they were told bluntly they needed far far larger fleets to do it, x3 larger as they realised in the end to be precise
but all the info they had at the time showed they were NOT able to achieve anything like their ludicrous claims

German industry dispersed, went underground etc and while reduced, it was not nearly so affected as to come close to the waste of time, money, resources and as noted, the incredibly precious and expensive lives of all those aircrew!

point to consider
aircraft especially need highly intelligent crew
as tech increases, you need smarter and smarter folk to use the tech devices well
hence, even modern armies do NOT want dumbasses, where as once upon a time, a reasonably healthy body would do
thus, WW2 and the enormous loss of life of bomber crews, destroyed the true "flower of the nations" of ALL our countries
men who should have been factory managers, researchers, doctors, scientists, good politicians, whatever, wiped out
the cream of the crop, butchered.
leaving inbred scumbags and jackasses to flower like weeds, no longer competing against COMPETENT and committed people

you can make some argument for mass bombing of japan, but even there it's not as great as is thought in many debates once you go look at the evidence, evidence the bozos in charge KNEW about at the time...and has since been largely ignored because it brings into question the colossal waste of lives
those bomber crews were..."urinated away" to put it in the vernacular

as said, the one very useful thing the bomber fleets could do, was mine laying, that WAS extremely efficient
oh it also very efficiently handed a LOT of money to corporations who have since, oddly enough, come to own the asses of our politicians...funny that, isn't it? :p

memoirs, interviews and talks with those around at the time show the incredibly purblind arrogance and stupidity of the Air Ministry and RAF top brass before and during WW2
absolutely intransigent blockhead scumbags who should have been taken out and SHOT for treason and sabotage, sigh
morons did everything they could to try and stop the Spitfire being adopted because all they wanted and allowed, were more bombers!
they saw fighters or anything else, from the Fleet Air Arm to recon or army observation craft, as a waste of time
remember, tests such as the US did with both dive bombing and vs
ships, and experience of the Spanish Civil War, China-Japan etc had long proven things were nothing like their lunacy of "uber bombers driving enemies to ruin and defeat easily!"

please see the % of bombs that actually hit ANYWHERE near an actual target
how many aircrews were lost
cost of the bombers
cost of that ludicrous Norden bomb sight system
Etc
idjits refused to accept the reality
if in doubt of such myopia and corrupt stupidity, consider...the US torpedo scandal, a triumph of blockheads over national interest and the lives of the men at sea.

sigh such issues are course, always with us, alas, but that's only because we do not flush out and punish these scum
there's no excuse for it, this isn't ancient Rome, and unless we want to collapse like Rome, we need to put a lot of folk today in front of firing squads for the incredible corruption, blunders, waste etc
British military is effectively for example, not worth a tinkers damn nowadays if there is a real conflict or major emergency (smart ones are seriously EXTREMELY worried, to the point of outright fear)
geegaws and nukes and over priced junk, with almost jack squat stores left, or protection of the coast with the army dispersed to every corner of the globe and cut to ludicrous levels, and so on and so on.

lol nowadays, I've often said we may as well be dropping GOLD BARS on the likes of ISIS etc due to the mad costs involved, yeesh!

lessons learned from WW1 and 2, etc are not being considered.
those were not "triumphs", those were horrendous DISASTERS that had no reason to be anything like as bad if not for the intransigent stupidity arrogance and corruption of those in power
all that matters nowadays in the Halls of Power, is that the Elite are spared having to pay any tax or face the Rule of Law
and we know where THAT leads.
I for one do not wish to live through the "Fall of Rome MKII" ! :p


back to Safehold, lol, some fun and sanity!
Emperor Zhou-Zwo is gonna waste a fortune on his "risikiflotte" because that and other things will spiral in costs materiele, money, time and lives.
but hey, he's a scumbag and if he ends up being hung by his ankles from a petrol (Praigyr?) station by enraged South Harchong folk one day...that's ok!

Say whatever, Silverblade, but I'm not finding you creditable on this. To be sure Germany did move some industry underground. But it was only a small slice of the whole and a fraction of what they truly needed. It was messy, and yes deadly. And I am willing to grant that lots of mistakes were made and things that should never have been done happened. But bottom line the bombers did their jobs and without that, the war would have lasted much longer because the Germans would have had more guns, more tanks, more synthetic oil and other things needed for their war effort.

Don

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SilverbladeTE, you seems to be mixing things up. While it could be argued that nighttime area bombing campaign of RAF wasn't effective, the USAF object bombing campaign and RAF precise bombing campaign of 1943+ was clearly a major success.

SilverbladeTE wrote:
Agents on the ground, or say a Mosquito launching a specialised missile with a radio beacon warhead (just add a self destruct system to help avoid the obvious issues) as a superior form of "pathfinder", you could create extremely effective bombing and missile systems
a "Tallboy" bomb dropped a few miles away, or using a rocket assisted glide bomb, you could make heavy bombers truly useful!

Nah. The radio beacons of this time did not have good enough angular resolution for that. Optical-contrast systems were better (at this time).

Dilandu wrote:

Nah. The radio beacons of this time did not have good enough angular resolution for that. Optical-contrast systems were better (at this time).

hm didn't know that!
was it an absolute limit on tech of the time, or just no one came up with such?

"cross shape" of an aircraft or winged missile would seem ideal for antennae at each far point on the vehicle, to set up a differentiating system?

n7axw wrote:
Say whatever, Silverblade, but I'm not finding you creditable on this. To be sure Germany did move some industry underground. But it was only a small slice of the whole and a fraction of what they truly needed. It was messy, and yes deadly. And I am willing to grant that lots of mistakes were made and things that should never have been done happened. But bottom line the bombers did their jobs and without that, the war would have lasted much longer because the Germans would have had more guns, more tanks, more synthetic oil and other things needed for their war effort.

Don

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Winners write the history, especially when they made enormous profit by it...or have the blood of hundreds of thousands of people on their hand and would be lynched if shown they'd tossed those lives away....

You have to dig to find the info.
Not doing that for you, lol, it's involved but it IS out there and you can find it. Notes of years of reading, news articles, historical etc
the facts can be found if you dig
Heavy bomber fleets were nowhere near large enough to achieve their aims...BUT such numbers were impossible to reach, and even what they had was utterly ruinous in terms of costs/lives.

It's believed that one of the dirty secrets was the heavy bomber fleets, especially the US (day time) were sacrificed to "soak up" the German 88mm production and wreck their fighter force, to make an invasion easier by having less weapons available to combat a push through France. Whether that was actually viable or sensible at all...
Sort of like Doolittle's Raid which tactically wasn't much use, but that raid DID have superb strategic effects (Japanese pulled back lot of forces etc to cover home islands)
However, in this case, the costs/lives lost were horrific and damaging to long term good of our nations.



but things to consider by example

#1 the US government censored the nuclear bombing info from Japan until the 1980s
some technical effects, yes, but much of the raw photography and suffering were edited out to keep nukes "sexy and appealing"...
whole nuclear policy was a huge congame, and very insane Brinkmanship.

#2 the Us Airforce completely left out the effect of firestorms from projected "wargame" plans all the nuclear scenarios and planning were based on until about 1990
note even the Russians relied on US data form nuclear tests for THEIR "wargame scenarios" etc so this was a very bad thing indeed.

Currently UK/USA *official government policy* is that:
"Our superior construction techniques means that firestorms are unlikely to occur in a nuclear exchange"
(you can go check that, it IS official stance)
But it's horsecrap!
While modern building design, when it's ever adhered to (See Grenfell Tower disaster, London, England) does greatly reduce fire risks...yet it is NOT much use against nuclear detonations, because doors and windows will typically be blown out at three or four times the range of serious structural damage by blast.
This means that fire safety designs will be completely compromised.

also, heat pulse and hot blast waves (nuclear blasts are furnace hot due to compression etc though cool as they travel) will heat and throw motor vehicles right through buildings, and their fuel tanks will explode (which is normally a rare thing despite Hollywood's take, but in such circumstances, it will be common)

also, they talk garbage about fuel loads etc to make it seem less likely
as anyone old enough to know should note, we have WAY more flammable goods in our houses than our grandparents did

ergo, in a nuclear detonation in a city, firestorms WILL likely occur
While the "official line " is that typical exchange scenario will concentrate on military targets...reality is...more dubious
and fallout from strikes on military targets will be colossal, such as Russian submarine bases
if there'd been an exchange int he Cold War, strikes on those kind of bases, with ships which had reactors, fuel and waste, warheads, vessels and reinforced structures with lots of metals, you'd get enormous induced radioactives
Strikes on reactor complexes were also planned and those may well have been true "End of the world" results from vast quantities of fallout

my point being:
they lie about nukes, think they didn't lie about a lot of stuff in WW2?
A lot of things from WW2 are still secret, or were utterly buried, which should make folk question

When Truman took over the job of investigating corruption of the war industries in America found around $15 billion being wasted (or outright corruption)
Note, it's thought by some Lincoln was murdered to stop him going ahead with his threatened investigation into war profiteering after the Civil War, ergo, they "let" his security be compromised...and that is very plausible when you consider the details and Grant Administration's corruption etc
War, as recent ones show, creates VAST corruption and lies to cover all the shenanigans up

Heavy bombers reducing enemy populace to ruin and thus forcing enemies to surrender, WAS an ideology of the 1930s/40s
for example, the movie "Things to Come" shows this as evidence of a cultural mentality
history, memoirs etc of those involved show this too, assholes really believed and pushed forward at ANY cost, heavy bombers over any alternative
thus, they inflated their abilities, denigrated and covered up any facts against this
you CAN find evidence to see my position but you will have to dig, lot of reputations, powerful folk...and billions of pounds/dollars were involved

Oops got one detail wrong
Norden bomb sights the USAAF bought, cost half of the cost of the entire Manhattan Project, a mere $1.5 billion
they were still crap though
the Germans also had them despite all the security hoopla and THEIR'S didn't work good either

SilverbladeTE wrote:was it an absolute limit on tech of the time, or just no one came up with such?

"cross shape" of an aircraft or winged missile would seem ideal for antennae at each far point on the vehicle, to set up a differentiating system?

It was a technical limit of what pre-Doppler vacuum-tube radio could do.

SilverbladeTE wrote:
Heavy bomber fleets were nowhere near large enough to achieve their aims...BUT such numbers were impossible to reach, and even what they had was utterly ruinous in terms of costs/lives.

Actually, as soon as they started to hit factories precise enough (i.e. in 1943, when USAAF gained experience, and RAF perfected the Oboe blind navigation system), they pummeled the Ruhr pretty hard. The damage to the German industry was enormous. Basically, 1943 was the first year, when ALL German military buildup failed completely on ALL parameters; the total production still get up, but the finished products weren't (because, for example, what's the point of tank factory doubling the production of hulls, if the engine factory was bombed and could not provide engines even for quarter of those hulls?)

Dilandu wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:
Heavy bomber fleets were nowhere near large enough to achieve their aims...BUT such numbers were impossible to reach, and even what they had was utterly ruinous in terms of costs/lives.

Actually, as soon as they started to hit factories precise enough (i.e. in 1943, when USAAF gained experience, and RAF perfected the Oboe blind navigation system), they pummeled the Ruhr pretty hard. The damage to the German industry was enormous. Basically, 1943 was the first year, when ALL German military buildup failed completely on ALL parameters; the total production still get up, but the finished products weren't (because, for example, what's the point of tank factory doubling the production of hulls, if the engine factory was bombed and could not provide engines even for quarter of those hulls?)

Actually, there is a quite a bit of info out there to support Silverblade's hypothesis. But let's visualize cutting Germany's production by a quarter when it is already coming up short and think of the results of that...

The most successful bombing raids were on the synthetic oil plants, which Germany didn't have enough of even before the raids. There are stories out there of, for example, a unit of Tigers sitting idol with no petrol.

Also it must be admitted, the allies were targeting civilians. The concept was that they wanted to demoralize them by "dehousing" them. Well, lots of dehousing happened, but it wasn't effective in breaking the workers will to work. Why they would have thought that would be effective after their own experience with the London blitz is beyond me...


Don

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