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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:23 pm

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locarno24 wrote:However, for the sake of a complete argument:

This is a pure raider design. The SLN isn't going to be happy with a neobarb building such, the only ones that would dare to build something like this are those who can stand up to the SLN. Manticore & Haven. Neither has a government that I think would consider this.

Also, while the orbit of your target can be accurate enough to hit from the outer parts of the system, but that also requires you know your position with that degree of accuracy. Do ships have that kind of information???

For a large orbital installation, probably; because military or not it'll probably be on navigational data for the system.

I'd argue it's more a capital-scale 'siege' unit than a raider; but yes, it's only real value is burning huge industrial infrastructure - we get the impression most 'modern' forts are mobile so trying to shoot at them from light-hour-plus range is not workable.

We know there are limits to the precision you can 'lay' a laser with the setting's technology - "We're too far out on the wrong vector for me to hit any of the buckets in Medusa orbit with a laser, and they're blanketing everything else" (Rafe Cardones, OBS) - that's from about an hour out of orbit (the last time check before the statement is 66 minutes into the pursuit). Obviously that's hitting a laser receiver, not just the station it's attached to, but it's a similar problem and the limits of the setting's abilities are shown.

Finally, if you've got accurate enough data to fire a capital-scale supergun at an orbital target, you've probably also got enough to lob C-fractional missiles at it - but said missiles are also useful if you find yourself needing to fight defending warships instead.


You misunderstand--I'm not questioning knowing the target well enough, but knowing your own location well enough. A typical civilian has no need of sub-kilometer positioning accuracy in the outer solar system. Thus it is unlikely there are any non-interactive systems (say, something akin to GPS) that provide that kind of accuracy to unknowns. You'll have to make your own measurements and that takes a decent chunk of time while your raider hangs out there.

It's good enough to c-frac, but note that a missile can wander off course.

It occurs to me there is one power that I think would actually consider building a weapon of this sort--the MAlign. However, to date they haven't built hulls that could mount it.

There's also the problem of ensuring the stability of your weapon mount. An incredibly tiny movement of the mount could cause a miss or even an Eridani violation. I'm remembering an incident from something like 15 years ago--the objective was to paint a diagram on a table. I had a device that emulated an ordinary Hewlett Packard plotter with one pen--except the pen was a laser. So long as the image was simple enough it could project it on a surface. (If the image was too fancy it would flicker badly because it wasn't being updated fast enough.) In testing everything worked fine, in practice the image wouldn't stay put--the culprit was the sun hitting the building, causing thermal expansion. (The table was staying put, the building itself moved and the laser was attached to the ceiling.)
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:27 pm

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Nevermind, everyone - this suggestion is dropped.

Like everytime I've mentioned this, the masses wants to argue points instead of researching and helping. These aren't to be debated, this is supposed to be a condensation of the outcome of David's word on subjects, either in pesrls, text, or on this forum. Instead I even get a suggestion on how the Grav Lance COULD WORK.

So since no one wants to assist - or just read old posts on subjects on their own to learn more...

NEVERMIND.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:28 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Also, AFAIK, interstellar communication relays are a no go. If they are present in normal space, you need a lot of them and the signal time takes longer than sending a ship in the Gamma bands. True, if they are present in a high hyperspace band, the signal will be much faster, but you have to keep them in operation there (which might be difficult at best) and you need ships shuttling back and forth to normal space to relay the signals.
Depends on what you think of as a "much faster" signal. If using radio or laser based relays in those high hyper bands the signal is only 40% faster than a ship's top speed (but a bit better overall since the ship needs acceleration time). Of if you outfit the proposed relays with Manticoran FTL transmitters then 100% faster (1/2 the time).

The implication of how RFC explained FTL signals is that they get effectively less FTL the higher a hyper band you're in. He explained that the signals propagate at the speed of light of the next higher hyper band. So in normal space they're moving at 62c - because that's the compression ratio between normal space and the Alpha bands. But in the Theta bands (the top band most people can access) the compression ratio is only 1.2x - the FTL signals are traveling at Iota's speed of light (6000c) while normal EM radiation is traveling at Theta's (5000c). However given that a ship can only make 0.6c that makes the EM signal 40% faster than the ship or the FTL signal twice as fast.

So building a chain of Theta band relays, if that's even possible, would be a heck of a lot of investment to achieve at best about a 50% reduction in transmission time.
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:35 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:You misunderstand--I'm not questioning knowing the target well enough, but knowing your own location well enough. A typical civilian has no need of sub-kilometer positioning accuracy in the outer solar system. Thus it is unlikely there are any non-interactive systems (say, something akin to GPS) that provide that kind of accuracy to unknowns. You'll have to make your own measurements and that takes a decent chunk of time while your raider hangs out there.

There are some 1500 known x-ray pulsars, many with extremely stable pulse rates. Given that you know roughly where you are it's not that hard to use those plus the location of the sun and the observed location of the various objects in orbit around the sun to locate yourself very accurately.

Pointing accuracy is a possible problem, but when you shoot enough pulses at very big targets using a pattern to compensate for the likely inaccuracy I think it will work if you can typically point accurately enough to hit a DD sized object at a couple of LS.
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by locarno24   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:57 am

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You misunderstand--I'm not questioning knowing the target well enough, but knowing your own location well enough. A typical civilian has no need of sub-kilometer positioning accuracy in the outer solar system. Thus it is unlikely there are any non-interactive systems (say, something akin to GPS) that provide that kind of accuracy to unknowns. You'll have to make your own measurements and that takes a decent chunk of time while your raider hangs out there.

A fair point.

Like everytime I've mentioned this, the masses wants to argue points instead of researching and helping. These aren't to be debated, this is supposed to be a condensation of the outcome of David's word on subjects, either in pesrls, text, or on this forum. Instead I even get a suggestion on how the Grav Lance COULD WORK.

So since no one wants to assist - or just read old posts on subjects on their own to learn more...

NEVERMIND.

Apologies. It wasn't intended to be - wasn't - a suggestion on how it could work.

It was merely intended to point out that whilst mentioning TWTSNBN that the solarian-developed 'Crippler' concept also existed, gets round some of the Manticoran Lances' restrictions, but also doesn't work as a military weapon, for reasons stated in that story, which I thought was also worth including in a summarised "this is not a thing because" post.
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by Joat42   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:22 am

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kzt wrote:..snip..
There are some 1500 known x-ray pulsars, many with extremely stable pulse rates.
..snip..

With a known decay-rate measured in uS or nS which can be used to calculate your position in the galaxy very accurately.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:52 am

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This is a thread for beating on dead horses...right... :twisted:

Don
-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:25 pm

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n7axw wrote:This is a thread for beating on dead horses...right... :twisted:

Don
-

And has indeed turned into a thread engaging in necrotic equine abuse
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:10 pm

TFLYTSNBN

fallsfromtrees wrote:
n7axw wrote:This is a thread for beating on dead horses...right... :twisted:

Don
-

And has indeed turned into a thread engaging in necrotic equine abuse


You mean "equine necrophilia"?
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Re: Sticky for Newbs - Dead Horses
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:59 pm

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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:You misunderstand--I'm not questioning knowing the target well enough, but knowing your own location well enough. A typical civilian has no need of sub-kilometer positioning accuracy in the outer solar system. Thus it is unlikely there are any non-interactive systems (say, something akin to GPS) that provide that kind of accuracy to unknowns. You'll have to make your own measurements and that takes a decent chunk of time while your raider hangs out there.

There are some 1500 known x-ray pulsars, many with extremely stable pulse rates. Given that you know roughly where you are it's not that hard to use those plus the location of the sun and the observed location of the various objects in orbit around the sun to locate yourself very accurately.

Pointing accuracy is a possible problem, but when you shoot enough pulses at very big targets using a pattern to compensate for the likely inaccuracy I think it will work if you can typically point accurately enough to hit a DD sized object at a couple of LS.


While pulsars are very useful for locating what star you're around I don't believe they are good enough to rival GPS in accuracy--and that's what you need to shoot with.
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