Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?

Brigade XO wrote:The SL/SLN may have written Eridani Edict and were viewed as the primary enfocers of it- their the 800lb gorilla- they certainly arn't the only ones who see it as a necessity nor are WILLING to enfoce it. Probably almost every system we have seen believes in both the Edict and doesn't want to be involved in anything that would bring it into play. The major exception to that is the Alignment and they really only view it as a component in their plans, not as a prohibition to devistate or kill everything on a planet.
Note that part of the discussion running up to Oyster Bay was to be very carefull to avoid direct strikes of weapons on the Manticore inhabited planets or Grayson but that the debris falling into the gravity wells involved didn't- just - actualy violate the EE. It was going to be "collateral damage" and essentially not their problem.
Part of the Detweiler Plan is to sow havoc and destruction across Human Space such that their front operation, the RF, shouldl be the way to eventialy bring all the systems under the control of the Alignment and impliment all of it's policies about pushing Human Improment.
They know and intend that BILLIONS are going to die but since they will pretty much will be "normal" humans and of little use beyond feedstock for experiments they will be used up adding to the chaos.
Manticore, on the other hand, isn't going to go around devistating planitary environments. They will abide by and enforce the EE. They conduct operations to avoid causing them.

When the SLN and mostly the head of the Bureaucracy decide on what amounts to a terror campaign to stay in power, they - the people in charge- effectivly throw the EE out the airlock since in the process of wipeing out the orbital in other in-system facilities of the system in Buccaneer etc, they are also going to eventualy kill a lot of people and have the same damage to planes as Oyster Bay along with, again eventually, throw missiles at planets.
It is only though the planning of the several SLN commanders in Buccanneer we do see that things haven't been raining down on occupied planet before Honor shows up at Earth and gives them a dose of their own medicine. Perhaps you have missed that what Honore does to the Sol system is a masterful rendition of Buccaneer without the civilian or much of any casaulties on the SLN side- and none we see due to direct GA weapons.

The Alignment, on the other hand, would have been most pleased if the GA had shown up and blasted eveything including the Earth, Mars and EVERYTHING in orbits (they spaired the essentialy civilian orbital habatats) and so start the slaugher and collapse of the SL and make the GA the next Great Satan.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:One aspect of the EE that mystifies me is the lack of understanding that simply destroying industrial infrastructure will result in genocidal casualties. The preindustrial population of Earth remained below 100 million people for tens of thousands of years. Even with the invention of agriculture and irrigation, the natural carrying capacity of the planet that humans evolved on was far, far less than 1 billion people. Most Honorverse planets seem to have populations of billions of people even though the biosphere is not completely Earthlike and humans have not wiped out the natural life forms to make room for human crops and livestock. These naturally large populations are able to survive and thrive because technology and industry provide food, shelter, warmth and critical supplies. Destroy the primary resource extraction, processing and manufacturing facilities which are off planet, a huge percentage of the population will die.

GloriousRuse wrote:In three basic responses here: I am generally talking about the main line books, as those tend to be the ones most responsible for defining the universe (beyond the malign introduction)...though I’d consider any off-shoot of sufficient severity.


1) The “Setbacks” have no actual consequence, they merely create the mask of one.

A) Eliazabeth is on the throne. And the incoming government and change of monarch caused transition problems, a shake out of the court based on the re-aligning favor, her inexperience showing through in the operation of her duties, and public and foreign confidence in the new leader required time and effort...which president was it that said it really takes a year before you even know where the bathrooms in the whitehouse are?

But, no, not actually. None of that happened. Instead, we get a perfect continuation of government from a character who is virtually a carbon copy of her predecessor. And then an extraordinarily successful round of foreign affairs that she helps spearhead. Not really a setback is it?

B) Oyster bay. Yes, the numbers are large, and much writing goes into decrying just how awful it is. Funnily enough, the SEM doesn’t suffer in the slightest. There is no drop in combat readiness. The economy tools along just fine. The entire industrial base is transferred to a foreign power seamlessly. Literally in the same book that we are being told Buccaneer has effectively knocked neutral systems back decades, centuries, we’re hearing “don’t worry, our recovery estimates say six months”...and we’re still magically rich too!”.

No actual setback occurred.

C) One Nike left. And the RMN has steamrolled everyone anyhow. And maintained enough light units to patrol their new empire. And even their older heavy cruisers are sufficient to drive the next competing powers missile hit rate down to under 3% while they can drive a packet of missiles wherever they please. Oh, and despite the largest naval losses in history at 1st manticore, and oyster bay, the RMN is still pumping units out to the point where a few squadrons of Nikes represent a marginal loss of combat power. Besides writing how tragic it is, I fail to see the issue?

D) Treecats. The vaunted treecat genocide ends with the SEM getting free nano-tech identifying telepath bodyguards for everyone. This is a setback?

E) Tricked into going to war...which has left them as the reigning super-power in the Universe. And has yet to have a consequenced effect of any scale beyond “I’m killing some people so we can feel righteous”. Practically zero tactical losses. OB has effectively been ignored. Lacoon cutting both ways because the SL was the manties biggest potential trade market? Of course not!

It all adds up to the equivalent of writing “and then Rocky got punched in the face really hard, so hard that the evil scientists said it was many Newton’s more than anyone had ever been punched, but he was Rocky so his noble chin did not so much as waver, his eye did not black, and he was filled by the cold steely vengeance of the morally upstanding after briefly thinking of Adrienne. He then knocked his opponent senseless with one jab”


2) Of Reaping and Sowing - TO BE CONTINUED

cthia wrote:snip
You're making the same mistake as the Malign who failed to understand the old adages, "for every reaction there may be an equal and opposite reaction." And my favorite, "people who make trouble get more than their share." Against a powerful entity, those notions are greatly magnified.

cthia wrote:Why didn't the Peep's abandon their heavy energy armaments in favor of more missile tubes? Quite frankly, there was a point I thought all but a couple of energy batteries made sense. Didn't Grayson wake up and champion a ship class with few energy weapons?

GloriousRuse wrote:Which is another BS manty magic pass. Pretending WMD actions aren’t in play once you’ve tangled with the SL. Of course they are. The SL are the only people restraining them. And the MAlign has every interest in genociding the SEM and part of original core in an orgy of planet killing to clear the board and pose the RF as the new sane security option in town.