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Information I'd love to know

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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:52 am

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Dauntless wrote:don't believe it was ever stated that Warlock was young's first command, though even with his connections I have a hard time believing his poor abilities would have been ignored if he screwed up command of a smaller ship.

Though to be fair providing he never saw combat his skills were merely poor, so a very good XO likely made sure the ship ran well enough that his total unsuitably to be master after god of a RMN ship was missed/ignored.

also to be fair against the average pirate he probably would have held his nerve, it was only when he was in a serious fight and at very real risk of death that his nerve broke.

as to how he got a heavy cruiser? the power of the north hollow files

or the first space lord needed something big for the navy and agreeing to give young a command of a CA was the price that had to be paid.

I don't recall it being stated, but likewise per your sentiment, I can't believe any command he'd have would be forgettable, or failed to leave a nasty taste in the Admiralty's mouth. And during the time the Admiralty was yoyoing Young's ass to prevent Warlock from returning to Basilisk to hamper Honor, they never brought up any other command and they surely discussed him with disdain. Just like if he'd gotten another command after Warlock, there's no way his command of Warlock wouldn't have been brought up.

He probably would hold his nerve against pirates if he'd bother to engage them, rather than leaving it to someone else. And if he did bother, I can't believe he wouldn't screw that up too, somehow. Like firing on them from as far as possible without giving a chance to surrender.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:13 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Was it ever mentioned why Young was given a Heavy Cruiser and Honor was given a Light Cruiser?

I know it was Honor's first hyper command, but wasn't Warlock also Young's first? In fact, wasn't it Young's first command of any kind? Honor had a previous command.


His connections, most definitely. He had patrons and his father also had people whose thumbs he could screw to get his son any posting he wanted, at least in peace time. Even without the coercion, Pavel was part of the clique inside the RMN that scratched each other's backs, so it's not unreasonable to think the Janacek Admiralty would have promoted him and others like him above people Hamish Alexander and Raoul Courvoisier liked. The thread on Honor, Nimitz and Pavel had some speculation about how anyone ended up on his crew in the first place and I suspect that it was also done the same way. Pavel would surround himself with his cronies and offer positions above the level they should really have had as pay-offs or as a way to hook them into the patronage network. Like him, those would probably lean heavily on their junior officers and enlisteds, which perversely made appointment to Warlock a good idea: you get to do the work that your superior should have done and it'll look good on your file.

Fearless wasn't Honor's first hyper command. That was HMS Hawkwing, which was her second actual command, after LAC 113. Again because of Pavel, the North Hollow files and their cronies, she kept getting pushed down and denied what was really her due. That's how she was only assigned command of an 80-year-old light cruiser instead of being a Capt. (jg) by the time. She was also behind Mike Henke at this time, who also had a case of being kept away from what was really her due, but instead by her own doing.

I know his connections were responsible for a lot, like him being given command of anything. But does one normally get a Heavy Cruiser as your first command?

I can't believe I don't remember Hawkwing, and not remembering that darn Lac I'll blame on RFC for not making it memorable. Someone said since the LAC was tethered to the Home system Honor couldn't have been somewhere in the fire. Normally, I'd agree. But Honor was always in the fire, somehow. And it was Lac 1(13). LOL

I've got to reread OBS to remember why she was so happy to receive Fearless, as if it was her first hyper command. She either did, or at least felt like, dancing in her quarters before she found out it was raped.

Go figure, Young failed at raping Honor but Hemphill didn't fall at raping her ship. Little wonder she felt such a kinship to Fearless.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:53 am

cthia
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Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
cthia wrote:Was it ever mentioned why Young was given a Heavy Cruiser and Honor was given a Light Cruiser?

I know it was Honor's first hyper command, but wasn't Warlock also Young's first? In fact, wasn't it Young's first command of any kind? Honor had a previous command.


Pavel Young was Senior Grade Captain*, Honor was a Commander** (two ranks behind). That meant that any ship he would command would be more prestigious than a mere light cruiser.

*It helps when one's father is on the House of Lords' naval committee.

**It doesn't help when a member of the House of Lords' naval committee is interfering with your career.


Since you brought it up, I do wonder how he received promotions if he didn't command anything else.

Initially, I thought he was given a Heavy Cruiser so he could be shipped off to Basilisk -- which, unbelievably since it had a terminus was thought to be a punishment -- and I thought that duty station required at least a Heavy Cruiser. Which is why I couldn't believe Honor would have taken the heat, thus hurting her career, if she hadn't been able to discharge her duties after he left her there to rot, with simply a Light Cruiser.

Was Warlock new? I still wish I knew what happened to her previous CO and how the news was broken to him...

"We're giving your command to Pavel Young."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:02 am

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According to House of Steel the Star Knight class of CA joined the RMN in 1893, 74 were built in a span of 27 years (house of steel is dated as being 1920/21), so that means on average less then 3 a year were made. only about 10 years between the first ship of the class being commissioned and OBS. though they likely built most of that 74 early in the first war before they had the superior Sag A (first seen in 1908, 46 built) and Sag B (first seen in 1917, 84 built) designs. Sag C(joined the RMN in 1920, 149 built) of course was one of the few highlights of the ceasefire years, ship wise.

so I'd say it is likely that Young was a keel owner and her first captain. poor ship to have young as her first captain.

though as already said he will have done damn little and actually running the ship will have been on the XO's shoulders
Last edited by Dauntless on Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm

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cthia wrote:I know his connections were responsible for a lot, like him being given command of anything. But does one normally get a Heavy Cruiser as your first command?


You don't. That's why it's highly unlikely it was his first hyper command, let alone his first command. He was a Captain of the List and he's not likely to have jumped ranks like Honor did to get there. So he must have been a Captain (j.g.) before, for at least a full Manticoran year, before his father and Janacek could justify promoting an unremarkable officer.

Mike Henke and Alistair McKeon were skippering CLs when they were junior Captains, so I'd speculate he did command a CL before Warlock. Very likely attached to a fleet, either in the Home System or somewhere reasonably safe too, so he didn't have to have initiative for anything. Then he was given a CA and showed he was an incompetent, so he got shipped to Basilisk.

I can't believe I don't remember Hawkwing, and not remembering that darn Lac I'll blame on RFC for not making it memorable. Someone said since the LAC was tethered to the Home system Honor couldn't have been somewhere in the fire. Normally, I'd agree. But Honor was always in the fire, somehow. And it was Lac 1(13). LOL


Don't blame yourself. The only story we know about her time on Hawkwing was the raid on Casimir, told in a short story, not a full book. As for LAC 113, it was only mentioned in SVW, but we don't know anything happened then. LACs are not hyper capable, so she was stuck in the Home System.
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:40 pm

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cthia wrote:Was Warlock new? I still wish I knew what happened to her previous CO and how the news was broken to him...

"We're giving your command to Pavel Young."


Yes, very likely. As Dauntless said above, the Star Knight class was brand new at the time. Another piece of evidence is Warlock's hull number, which is actually one of the only two numbers we have for Star Knights: HMS Warlock (CA-277) and HMS Fearless (CA-286). We know Honor got a brand new ship and if Dauntless' calculation of an average 3 a year, that would put the commissioning of the two apart by a mere 3 years. We know Fearless was still under construction in 1901, so that would put Warlock's commissioning some time in late 1898 or early 1899.

I actually think the number of 3 ships a year is low. Star Knights were probably not built after the Edward Saganami class came fully online and we know Mike Henke was commanding HMS Edward Saganami in 1910. So if we say the last of the Star Knights was launched in 1910, the 74 ships were built in only 17 years, at a rate of more than 4.3 a year, which would put the age difference between Warlock and Fearless under 2 years.

Conclusion: Pavel Young was Warlock's plank owner and she likely still had the new ship smell in OBS (aside from where Young and his cronies fouled it up). And Basilisk may have been Warlock's first assignment too.
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:15 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Was Warlock new? I still wish I knew what happened to her previous CO and how the news was broken to him...

"We're giving your command to Pavel Young."


Yes, very likely. As Dauntless said above, the Star Knight class was brand new at the time. Another piece of evidence is Warlock's hull number, which is actually one of the only two numbers we have for Star Knights: HMS Warlock (CA-277) and HMS Fearless (CA-286). We know Honor got a brand new ship and if Dauntless' calculation of an average 3 a year, that would put the commissioning of the two apart by a mere 3 years. We know Fearless was still under construction in 1901, so that would put Warlock's commissioning some time in late 1898 or early 1899.

I actually think the number of 3 ships a year is low. Star Knights were probably not built after the Edward Saganami class came fully online and we know Mike Henke was commanding HMS Edward Saganami in 1910. So if we say the last of the Star Knights was launched in 1910, the 74 ships were built in only 17 years, at a rate of more than 4.3 a year, which would put the age difference between Warlock and Fearless under 2 years.

Conclusion: Pavel Young was Warlock's plank owner and she likely still had the new ship smell in OBS (aside from where Young and his cronies fouled it up). And Basilisk may have been Warlock's first assignment too.

Maybe 1898 more than 1899. Remember, she went in for a refit. You don't normally need a refit in less than a year? Of course, the yard dogs did say he could have waited a bit longer, but still. Actually, I thought closer to five years would be a regularly scheduled tuneup, providing you're not doing donuts in the parking lot with your ship.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:43 pm

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cthia wrote:Maybe 1898 more than 1899. Remember, she went in for a refit. You don't normally need a refit in less than a year? Of course, the yard dogs did say he could have waited a bit longer, but still. Actually, I thought closer to five years would be a regularly scheduled tuneup, providing you're not doing donuts in the parking lot with your ship.


She didn't need a refit. Young took Warlock to a refit so he could leave Honor alone and set her up for failure. You can't count on any sensible timeline being obeyed here. He dropped a line to his buddies at the Admiralty requesting they approve of the refit. The somewhat neutral parties might have seen an opportunity to curry favour with Hemphill and jumped on-board. And once the Competent RMN officers realised Honor was actually doing a good job, they wholeheartedly approved of the refit and kept Warlock tied up.

One possible reason he may have given was because the ship was so new. In a class that was only 8 years old at the time, it's expected that you're going to find issues that the builders need to investigate. That's why ships go through builders' trials before commissioning and then go through a shake up exercise before deploying. You can expect that those to have been cut short so he could assume command of a brand, new Star Knight, and then later to blame the "incompetent staff at Haphaestus" for problems, whether real or conjured up.
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:02 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Maybe 1898 more than 1899. Remember, she went in for a refit. You don't normally need a refit in less than a year? Of course, the yard dogs did say he could have waited a bit longer, but still. Actually, I thought closer to five years would be a regularly scheduled tuneup, providing you're not doing donuts in the parking lot with your ship.


She didn't need a refit. Young took Warlock to a refit so he could leave Honor alone and set her up for failure. You can't count on any sensible timeline being obeyed here. He dropped a line to his buddies at the Admiralty requesting they approve of the refit. The somewhat neutral parties might have seen an opportunity to curry favour with Hemphill and jumped on-board. And once the Competent RMN officers realised Honor was actually doing a good job, they wholeheartedly approved of the refit and kept Warlock tied up.

One possible reason he may have given was because the ship was so new. In a class that was only 8 years old at the time, it's expected that you're going to find issues that the builders need to investigate. That's why ships go through builders' trials before commissioning and then go through a shake up exercise before deploying. You can expect that those to have been cut short so he could assume command of a brand, new Star Knight, and then later to blame the "incompetent staff at Haphaestus" for problems, whether real or conjured up.

Correct. She didn't need a refit, but I recall Warner?, saying he was close enough that he could justfy approving it. Warner certainly didn't want to do the tedious work of replacing expensive parts that had more time. Nodes, tuners, whatever? But to help with the cause, since the time for a refit was close enough, he would do it.

At any rate, I'm sure you're correct.

Aside: Can anyone remember why Fearless herself was chosen to be a testbed for the grav lance? Was it her age, availability, or some quirk of CL's in general?

I ask because, if a CA was used and raped, it would still retain the firepower of at least a CL?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Information I'd love to know
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:44 pm

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cthia wrote:Aside: Can anyone remember why Fearless herself was chosen to be a testbed for the grav lance? Was it her age, availability, or some quirk of CL's in general?

I ask because, if a CA was used and raped, it would still retain the firepower of at least a CL?


IIRC, from discussions on TWTSNBN, a CL was the smallest ship that could power a grav lance, a destroyer being too small. Since that was only a prototype that probably half the fleet thought would go nowhere, they didn't give Hemphill anything larger. Fearless was 80 years old and served almost no further purpose. It if it hadn't been for the grav lance mods, she would have been decommissioned.
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