Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)

Brigade XO wrote:With frigates we are back to asymmetrical warfare and making do (or pushing it) with what you can get and bring to the table. No, Manticore isn't going to build frigates for themselvesbecause they both need more capable warships (DDs and larger) and they now have modern LACs with significant reach, speed and endurance to work as a highly effective system defence system.


A modern Patrol Boat with high speed, lowish radar signature and anti-shipping missiles is a threat to much larger ships. Very much the way PT Boats were from WW I through II and beyond. While I don't believe any capital ships were sunk by PT boats, Destoryers were and capital ships were damaged. They also sank a lot of other things. Almost as important, with the ability to deliver torpedos, they were a threat that any warship had to acknowlege and manuver to avoid. Remember that Destoryers evolved from Torpedo Boat Destroyers- they got bigger, added more range and weapons but origianlly they were designed to screen fleet vessles from those fast, low slung, highly manuverable little buggers that could hit a major warship with a torpedo and, if not kill it outright, cripple it so something larger and nastier could catch up with it and kill it.

And that's why modern LACs ( the direct analog of the coastal missile/gun/torpedo boat) are useful, but modern Destroyers have several times the firepower of a Modern LAC. The typesheet I posted is essentially a distillation of multiple posts by David on the Frigates and their future. The analogy of poor nations making due with available subpar or minimalist ships is mine. But the important point is No major navies will be fielding a Frigate.

Galactic Sapper wrote:One of Honor's long standing character flaws is that she will always defend others more vigorously than she will herself - in that case, she disabled her attacker and ran. If she'd walked in on another cadet being attacked she'd have twisted his head off like a bottle cap without a second thought. See the murderous rage in HotQ - she'll do that for literally anyone other than herself.

It depends on how quickly her rationality reasserted itself. As you said, she'd disabled her opponent: there was no further risk to herself or any others at that time. Killing him could have unpleasant consequences. An enlightened society would probably see it as self-defence, but she also knew that the North Hollows would use all the nasty tools at their disposal against her, ruining her best laid plans. Even if the rape attempt was proven beyond a doubt, the North Hollows would argue that lethal force wasn't necessary and therefore it wasn't self-defence.

Probably also why she didn't report it: it would be her word, a yeoman's daughter, against his, with all the firepower of the North Hollows. She may not understand politics, but she could see enough of a difference between them to know the consequence. Quite different a perspective than Mike Henke's: as someone who probably played piggyback on the former king's shoulders and who threw sand at the future monarch, she had no such inhibition. She was guided by what's right.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:One of Honor's long standing character flaws is that she will always defend others more vigorously than she will herself - in that case, she disabled her attacker and ran. If she'd walked in on another cadet being attacked she'd have twisted his head off like a bottle cap without a second thought. See the murderous rage in HotQ - she'll do that for literally anyone other than herself.

It depends on how quickly her rationality reasserted itself. As you said, she'd disabled her opponent: there was no further risk to herself or any others at that time. Killing him could have unpleasant consequences. An enlightened society would probably see it as self-defence, but she also knew that the North Hollows would use all the nasty tools at their disposal against her, ruining her best laid plans. Even if the rape attempt was proven beyond a doubt, the North Hollows would argue that lethal force wasn't necessary and therefore it wasn't self-defence.

Probably also why she didn't report it: it would be her word, a yeoman's daughter, against his, with all the firepower of the North Hollows. She may not understand politics, but she could see enough of a difference between them to know the consequence. Quite different a perspective than Mike Henke's: as someone who probably played piggyback on the former king's shoulders and who threw sand at the future monarch, she had no such inhibition. She was guided by what's right.

I think it was more reflexive than rational and her reaction afterward was more in the way of justifying to herself her reflexive action and failure to report it than it was thought through in the moment.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:One of Honor's long standing character flaws is that she will always defend others more vigorously than she will herself - in that case, she disabled her attacker and ran. If she'd walked in on another cadet being attacked she'd have twisted his head off like a bottle cap without a second thought. See the murderous rage in HotQ - she'll do that for literally anyone other than herself.

It depends on how quickly her rationality reasserted itself. As you said, she'd disabled her opponent: there was no further risk to herself or any others at that time. Killing him could have unpleasant consequences. An enlightened society would probably see it as self-defence, but she also knew that the North Hollows would use all the nasty tools at their disposal against her, ruining her best laid plans. Even if the rape attempt was proven beyond a doubt, the North Hollows would argue that lethal force wasn't necessary and therefore it wasn't self-defence.

Probably also why she didn't report it: it would be her word, a yeoman's daughter, against his, with all the firepower of the North Hollows. She may not understand politics, but she could see enough of a difference between them to know the consequence. Quite different a perspective than Mike Henke's: as someone who probably played piggyback on the former king's shoulders and who threw sand at the future monarch, she had no such inhibition. She was guided by what's right.

I agree she shouldn't have killed him. That would have opened up a huge can of worms in court, namely, the everpresent prejudice against genies.

But! She should have reported it. Let the navy deal with such criminal actions against their own, which simply have no place in the navy. That would have put paid to Young's ass long ago. Yes, there was the North Hollow files, but you didn't allow for the factor you included in your own post. Michelle was her best friend and she was as close to the Queen as you can get. Like my friend Iulia -- who detests Honor's 'characteristic prudish American decision' -- said, talk about name dropping. No one could drop names like Honor could have.

There is no way in hell Young would have gotten away with that. Honor caused a lot of grief to herself, and to the Navy in the long run. And, perhaps the shelf life of the North Hollow Files would have expired much sooner than they did. Honor blew it because, well, Galactic Sapper touched on it below. It comes down to her feeling guilty at the joy she felt in putting her high gravity foot up Young's ass.

cthia wrote:But! She should have reported it. Let the navy deal with such criminal actions against their own, which simply have no place in the navy. That would have put paid to Young's ass long ago. Yes, there was the North Hollow files, but you didn't allow for the factor you included in your own post. Michelle was her best friend and she was as close to the Queen as you can get. Like my friend Iulia -- who detests Honor's 'characteristic prudish American decision' -- said, talk about name dropping. No one could drop names like Honor could have.

There is no way in hell Young would have gotten away with that. Honor caused a lot of grief to herself, and to the Navy in the long run. And, perhaps the shelf life of the North Hollow Files would have expired much sooner than they did. Honor blew it because, well, Galactic Sapper touched on it below. It comes down to her feeling guilty at the joy she felt in putting her high gravity foot up Young's ass.

No doubt she should have reported it. I would hope that 2000 years of civilisation evolution and 500 of a free and equitable Manticoran society would mean victims suffer no stigma after reporting rape. But you're right about the stigma against genies, which she knew she was and might come to light in the proceedings.

You're also right that she could have mounted the best defence possible, with the Crown's help, who would be likely eager to take on the North Hollows. But she didn't know she could: she likely didn't consider her friendship with Mike extending that far (remember that Mike reported to the Commandant behind Honor's back). And even if she did know, being the centre of the media's attention was definitely not what she wanted. She was also aware that the Navy still had the cliques of patrons and the North Hollows had friends who could and would (and did try to!) derail her career.

So when her rationality reasserted itself, she made a conscious choice to let it go. To her later detriment.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But! She should have reported it. Let the navy deal with such criminal actions against their own, which simply have no place in the navy. That would have put paid to Young's ass long ago. Yes, there was the North Hollow files, but you didn't allow for the factor you included in your own post. Michelle was her best friend and she was as close to the Queen as you can get. Like my friend Iulia -- who detests Honor's 'characteristic prudish American decision' -- said, talk about name dropping. No one could drop names like Honor could have.

There is no way in hell Young would have gotten away with that. Honor caused a lot of grief to herself, and to the Navy in the long run. And, perhaps the shelf life of the North Hollow Files would have expired much sooner than they did. Honor blew it because, well, Galactic Sapper touched on it below. It comes down to her feeling guilty at the joy she felt in putting her high gravity foot up Young's ass.

No doubt she should have reported it. I would hope that 2000 years of civilisation evolution and 500 of a free and equitable Manticoran society would mean victims suffer no stigma after reporting rape. But you're right about the stigma against genies, which she knew she was and might come to light in the proceedings.

You're also right that she could have mounted the best defence possible, with the Crown's help, who would be likely eager to take on the North Hollows. But she didn't know she could: she likely didn't consider her friendship with Mike extending that far (remember that Mike reported to the Commandant behind Honor's back). And even if she did know, being the centre of the media's attention was definitely not what she wanted. She was also aware that the Navy still had the cliques of patrons and the North Hollows had friends who could and would (and did try to!) derail her career.

So when her rationality reasserted itself, she made a conscious choice to let it go. To her later detriment.

Keep in mind that my reaction to the rape attempt in OBS was in context of NOT being aware that Congresswoman Joni Earnst and Senator Martha MacSally were both victims of rape. These are two strong women that I greatly respect, yet they found themselves physically overpowered. I suspect that if there is any truth to the allegations that Governor Palin had a sexual encounter with NBA player Glenn Rice prior to marriage, it was not consensual. Given Governor Palin's acrimonious relationship with corrupt factions within the Alaska State Police, it is plausible that someone in the department recalled the incident being reported and provided the records to that hack author. Given my somewhat more enlightened understanding inspired by these incidents, I don't view the rape attempt by Pavel Young against Honor in the same way. It doesn't undermine her credibility.

This being said, I actually think that Weber chickened out by having the would be rapists back off in IN ENEMY HANDS. If you are the type of State Sec thugs that will do that, you aren't going to back off just because the victim is going to put up a fight. The Masadans didn't back off when Iris Babcock put up a fight.

At the risk of straying into political subjects, I would point out that my experience with the courts giving my marijuana bootlegging tenant a free pass for shooting at my son has given me better understanding of why many crime victims don't trust the system. I had no idea that certain agencies of the State of Oregon and the courts had become so corrupt. To be blunt, the policies of the OMMP to issue address specific, marijuana grow site permits to tenants or ANYONE ELSE for property without land owner consent are INTENTIONAL CONSPIRACY to commit grand larceny. OMMP also conspires to protect totally illegal growers by resisting court orders to produce records that confirm that a grow is unlicensed. Judge Wiles also had a vested interest in creating an opportunity for his wife to salvage her career by maliciously prosecuting my family for our tenant's illegal grow. The OMMP bureaucracy are so corrupt that they continue to prolong this policy even after passage of HB-3200.

If I had known what I know now back when I discovered that massive marijuana grow, my response would have been to kill everyone involved and encourage the cops to presume that it was just a drug deal gone wrong. If the bureaucrats and judges don't like my attitude, they can clean up their act. My tenant just got busted for driving drink. Perhaps he will get angry enough to go on a shooting spree at the courthouse?

The bottom line is that my own recent experiences with corrupt government agencies and a corrupt judge give me new perspective on how a woman in an extremely class conscious society would be deterred from prosecuting.

I remain amazed that Nimitz didn't castrate Pavel Young then kill him.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:But! She should have reported it. Let the navy deal with such criminal actions against their own, which simply have no place in the navy. That would have put paid to Young's ass long ago. Yes, there was the North Hollow files, but you didn't allow for the factor you included in your own post. Michelle was her best friend and she was as close to the Queen as you can get. Like my friend Iulia -- who detests Honor's 'characteristic prudish American decision' -- said, talk about name dropping. No one could drop names like Honor could have.

There is no way in hell Young would have gotten away with that. Honor caused a lot of grief to herself, and to the Navy in the long run. And, perhaps the shelf life of the North Hollow Files would have expired much sooner than they did. Honor blew it because, well, Galactic Sapper touched on it below. It comes down to her feeling guilty at the joy she felt in putting her high gravity foot up Young's ass.

No doubt she should have reported it. I would hope that 2000 years of civilisation evolution and 500 of a free and equitable Manticoran society would mean victims suffer no stigma after reporting rape. But you're right about the stigma against genies, which she knew she was and might come to light in the proceedings.

You're also right that she could have mounted the best defence possible, with the Crown's help, who would be likely eager to take on the North Hollows. But she didn't know she could: she likely didn't consider her friendship with Mike extending that far (remember that Mike reported to the Commandant behind Honor's back). And even if she did know, being the centre of the media's attention was definitely not what she wanted. She was also aware that the Navy still had the cliques of patrons and the North Hollows had friends who could and would (and did try to!) derail her career.

So when her rationality reasserted itself, she made a conscious choice to let it go. To her later detriment.

I can't board the bus to her not knowing she could count on the Crown's help. It comes down to human nature. Ask yourself if you wouldn't feel somewhat privileged if you were the closest friend of Michelle's. Honor isn't stupid.

The Queen is also female, and she would not have allowed that crap to thrive in her father's navy. Heck, everyone was poised to help her. Michelle only went behind her back because Honor wouldn't speak up herself.

No, the stigma of rape would not exist that far in the future. Certainly not in an enlightened, female run society like Manticore. But, to be fair to Honor, other factors were at play. Like Honor's lack of self esteem because of her looks. Ugly enough to rape but not to date. Plus, we have to allow for the reverence and deference a yeomen/commoner would naturally harbor regarding the upper class. It wouldn't be too far removed from a commoner in present day England feeling confident of winning a rape charge against someone in the royal family.

But! The difference here is this is the Navy. Honor had responsibilities to the navy and all other women who could be, have been, and will be treated the same. And she is the best friend of the Queen, by proxy.

Plus, she is the heroine!

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Keep in mind that my reaction to the rape attempt in OBS was in context of NOT being aware that Congresswoman Joni Earnst and Senator Martha MacSally were both victims of rape. These are two strong women that I greatly respect, yet they found themselves physically overpowered. I suspect that if there is any truth to the allegations that Governor Palin had a sexual encounter with NBA player Glenn Rice prior to marriage, it was not consensual. Given Governor Palin's acrimonious relationship with corrupt factions within the Alaska State Police, it is plausible that someone in the department recalled the incident being reported and provided the records to that hack author. Given my somewhat more enlightened understanding inspired by these incidents, I don't view the rape attempt by Pavel Young against Honor in the same way. It doesn't undermine her credibility.

This being said, I actually think that Weber chickened out by having the would be rapists back off in IN ENEMY HANDS. If you are the type of State Sec thugs that will do that, you aren't going to back off just because the victim is going to put up a fight. The Masadans didn't back off when Iris Babcock put up a fight.

At the risk of straying into political subjects, I would point out that my experience with the courts giving my marijuana bootlegging tenant a free pass for shooting at my son has given me better understanding of why many crime victims don't trust the system. I had no idea that certain agencies of the State of Oregon and the courts had become so corrupt. To be blunt, the policies of the OMMP to issue address specific, marijuana grow site permits to tenants or ANYONE ELSE for property without land owner consent are INTENTIONAL CONSPIRACY to commit grand larceny. OMMP also conspires to protect totally illegal growers by resisting court orders to produce records that confirm that a grow is unlicensed. Judge Wiles also had a vested interest in creating an opportunity for his wife to salvage her career by maliciously prosecuting my family for our tenant's illegal grow. The OMMP bureaucracy are so corrupt that they continue to prolong this policy even after passage of HB-3200.

If I had known what I know now back when I discovered that massive marijuana grow, my response would have been to kill everyone involved and encourage the cops to presume that it was just a drug deal gone wrong. If the bureaucrats and judges don't like my attitude, they can clean up their act. My tenant just got busted for driving drink. Perhaps he will get angry enough to go on a shooting spree at the courthouse?

The bottom line is that my own recent experiences with corrupt government agencies and a corrupt judge give me new perspective on how a woman in an extremely class conscious society would be deterred from prosecuting.

I remain amazed that Nimitz didn't castrate Pavel Young then kill him.

I can understand any other woman's decision as well, in such a class conscious society, up against an overbred cretin of Pavel Young fame who hails from such a well known despicable family with leverage. But NOT Honor. Not the heroine of the story. Not from someone who needed to know if her Queen is worthy. Not from someone with her resume even then. Not from the daughter of Alison and Alfred Harrington.

As far as Nimitz not castrating Young, my niece said long ago she doesn't know why Nimitz never needed therapy.

But, I can scarcely believe Alfred knew, or Young would have become a missing person.

It doesn't undermine her creditability as a person. Whether it undermines her creditability as a Queen's officer is questionable. But as a heroine, it leaves a huge hole in her cape. IMO.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Given my somewhat more enlightened understanding inspired by these incidents, I don't view the rape attempt by Pavel Young against Honor in the same way. It doesn't undermine her credibility.

And that's an interesting aspect: OBS, SVW and FoD were published in the early 90s and most of the readers might have had attitude like yours. The books are a product of their time. We, on the other hand, have evolved.

This being said, I actually think that Weber chickened out by having the would be rapists back off in IN ENEMY HANDS. If you are the type of State Sec thugs that will do that, you aren't going to back off just because the victim is going to put up a fight. The Masadans didn't back off when Iris Babcock put up a fight.

They were under orders by Secretary Ransom not to damage her too much, as she was supposed to stand trial and be executed. The PRH needed to outwardly appear to be conducting a fair trial and wouldn't abuse their prisoners. Physically restraining her enough to successfully rape her would have violated their orders.

Not that I think the would-be rapists were thinking with their top heads at the time. They'd usually have needed to be restrained. On the other hand, bullies tend to back off when their victims fight back.

The bottom line is that my own recent experiences with corrupt government agencies and a corrupt judge give me new perspective on how a woman in an extremely class conscious society would be deterred from prosecuting.

I remain amazed that Nimitz didn't castrate Pavel Young then kill him.

Nimitz wasn't around in the shower. Did Honor bring him to Warlock when she met Capt. Young in OBS?

But your conclusion is something that most of the male readers will never understand. I can say I understand intellectually, but not in the visceral level women, minorities and just about anyone who looks different do. I would have hoped that the Manticoran society and the 2000 years of human evolution had weeded those problems, but it appears they didn't.

Again, the books are from the 90s. The stigma was as expected as the use of fax.

I don't recall any stigma present around either incident of rape.

Did I miss something?

IMO, neither had anything to do with stigma. The closest to it I recall, but yet so far, is the sexual harassment Honor's crew endured on Grayson. But it wasn't stigma that kept them quiet, but duty and not wanting to let Honor down. Honor set an ugly example her crew tried to follow. Which leads right back to her responsibility to other women in the navy I spoke about upstream.

Nimitz was not present aboard Warlock. He was way too emotionally vested at that point.

Lots of sideband discussion available here.