Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?

GloriousRuse wrote:I hardly think the manticore wormhole counts as all the choke points in the world for this analogy. It’s not every wormhole everywhere in human space. But that aside:

For you to make money controlling a choke point, you basically need to charge tolls/fees/taxes or give your merchants preferential treatment (or both). If it’s tolls, that means other people’s stuff needs to come through or enough of your domestic stuff has to go out. Which when you remove what is literally somewhere above 80% of the galactic market which you used to count on to provide those fees - well, your chokepoint isn’t making much money. Ask the Turks how much they made off the straits during WWI when Russia was an enemy.

If you’re giving your own merchants a price advantage, they still need to actually buy, sell, or at least transport other people’s stuff, somewhere. Only you now can’t do that in the overwhelming majority of the market that you used to work in. So your price advantage doesn’t matter.

Either way, from a revenue generation stand point, you still need a market to work with. Simply owning the Panama Canal doesn’t make you rich unless people can use it, and the manties made sure own a tawdry pittance of their former trade can use it.

Plus the vast loss carriage and trade revenues in the league.

If Manticore is supposed to be Great Britain, this is the equivalent of them voluntarily accepting the continental system, stopping trade with the majority of their empire and it’s bordering areas, and thinking it’ll be ok because they can still trade with post-revolutionary America and Canada.

GloriousRuse wrote:I hardly think the manticore wormhole counts as all the choke points in the world for this analogy. It’s not every wormhole everywhere in human space. But that aside:

For you to make money controlling a choke point, you basically need to charge tolls/fees/taxes or give your merchants preferential treatment (or both). If it’s tolls, that means other people’s stuff needs to come through or enough of your domestic stuff has to go out. Which when you remove what is literally somewhere above 80% of the galactic market which you used to count on to provide those fees - well, your chokepoint isn’t making much money. Ask the Turks how much they made off the straits during WWI when Russia was an enemy.

If you’re giving your own merchants a price advantage, they still need to actually buy, sell, or at least transport other people’s stuff, somewhere. Only you now can’t do that in the overwhelming majority of the market that you used to work in. So your price advantage doesn’t matter.

Either way, from a revenue generation stand point, you still need a market to work with. Simply owning the Panama Canal doesn’t make you rich unless people can use it, and the manties made sure own a tawdry pittance of their former trade can use it.

Plus the vast loss carriage and trade revenues in the league.

If Manticore is supposed to be Great Britain, this is the equivalent of them voluntarily accepting the continental system, stopping trade with the majority of their empire and it’s bordering areas, and thinking it’ll be ok because they can still trade with post-revolutionary America and Canada.

SharkHunter wrote:This thread has been a really fun read, for someone who has been away from the forum for a long time. I particularly liked the point in the thread where the comparison to the USN vs the IJN got going, because the poster's thoughts and even counterarguments are all close to the mark.

I'm not quite in the "root against Manticore" crowd, but I am definitely still in the "Prichart's Haven" crowd. In the Honorverse future history, they save Manticore's butt in a very similar way to how the USN helped the Royal Navy emerge victorious in the North Atlantic.

Where I stopped rooting for the writing comes where some of the later battle sequences is that the RMN commanders in the various actions correctly predict the opp force's psych and tactical moves early enough to guarantee a near-painless win.

Earlier in the series at least Honor, et. al. were building up their winning credentials, but making mistakes in the process. Haven command staff, likewise. For example, in OBS, Coglin realizes he should have waited to blow his panels until Fearless was in energy range; in HotQ, Honor realizes they should have pursued Saladin/Thunder of God immediately. Theisman and Tourville, etc. survive early actions because they act honorably, but they score wins against the RMN rather frequently as well.

Even as late as the Torch books, both opp forces still make enough mistakes that while we can (in theory) predict a protagonist win (AKA Torch wasn't going to get Eridani'd into smithereens), it is not a win without sacrifice. Same for the ground actions on Mesa, etc.

In contrast, in the later books, the MAlign's murderous nukes always accomplish their goal... except that Manticore doesn't die. Bolthole isn't penetrated, Honor survives. We don't see the A line assassins going up against Thandi Palane.

RMN wise, the task group, etc. often don't even get their paint scratched. An example, I wouldn't have minded Lessem's victory at the Prime/Ajay terminus if they'd stopped the Buccaneer side, but been driven off the terminus with significant losses. It's a tactical stalemate but some very smart SLN naval personnel survive. The SLN gets to cut the line of wormholes, but can't do anything about it so it becomes a race to see who can hold the bridgehead, etc. etc. etc. while trying to get word of the improvements to the other side's tech improvements in time to use them. Isotalo's forces have Huskies, but no similar forces are deployed far enough out to protect Hyperion One? Hmmm...

Similarly, I would have much rather learned the outcome at Hypatia by having the next set of RMN forces arrive and not be able to find Kotouč's ships, a whole lot of ship wreckage -- and then get a message from HMS Angrim saying "we're the only ship left". We don't immediately find out who's alive or dead... I'd have had them arrive in Manticore post-Beowulf, just prior to the Grand Fleet making the payoff when Honor meets Commander Peterson more valuable, without changing Honor's inner darkness enough to stop the Juggernaut. Get around to rewarding HMS Angrim and Kotouč's other ships with their names on the List of Honor, future wedding plans can then be discussed, etc. in the denouement.

Finally, Grayson seems to have disappeared as mattering a damn except following Abigail Hearns around the galaxy. I'd rather know that they're rebuilding the Blackbird Yards and building what we might call a "vengeance force" to go after the MAlign under Michael Mayhew's direction, maybe some MAlign scheming as they running to Darius to get a bridgehead at Masada, etc. Maybe Grayson signs an attack pact with Torch? and now the race is on to see who gets to knife range first...

My thoughts? Authorial fatigue. Your thoughts?

bert953 wrote:I agree that the anti-Manty rants seem overdone. As stated, they were attacked by Haven, they did endure the High Ridge govt., Havens attack on the Manticore system & Oyster Bay. These were followed by the MAligns manipulating the Sollys into a shooting engagement by manipulating their leadership including the Mandarins into acting out their arrogance against neo-barbs. Case buccaneer & parthan shot were SLN erandi edict violations, and Manticore was again subject to an attempted invasion by Admiral Filaretta. Only when the Beowulf civilian orbital habitats were destroyed, did the calculus change so that the GA invaded Sol. My understanding (as a civilian who has never served in the military) is that wars are the result of failed politics. One of the ways wars end is when enough troops and/or civilians get killed, the politicians lose their power base and are FORCED to surrender; ie. Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

It makes no sense to invade Sol and then leave the infrastructure intact so that the next group of filthy politicians (they are all filthy aren't they) can immediately start working on rebuilding their Navy with no real change in their corrupt ways. It sounds to me as if some readers just dont like the Manties any more, because the recent books were "military porn". I beg to differ. One of my favorite books is A rising thunder, which is were the conflict with the Sollies really starts to take shape. Not just the space battles, but the politics and the human cost of those politics is edpecially engaging and adds depth to the Honorverse (as well as Safehold).

I am really, really looking forward to the next layers of the onion being peeled, because the MAlign has invested in some serious bad Karma for themselves. There's nothing like seeing a bully take some of the medicine they enjoyed dishing out, with interest.

cthia wrote:However, I once asked for the battles to be harder as well, but as a result of some Solly CO being good enough to make the list or at least honorable mention. I know there's only one Honor in the galaxy, but in the whole of the League there isn't at least a Theisman or a Tourville, or a Giscard? A Shannon aboard one of the Solly ships would have been interesting as well.

At the very least, I expected Honor to go up against an accomplished tactician when she entered Sol Central.