A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:If they got any part of the nanites from her flag lieutenant (Tim Meares?), or even if not, they have probably figured out that the compulsion is very temporary; take the person down without killing them, and the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes.

The problem for the victims so far, is that there wasn't anyone aware of the possibility, or in a position to intervene and provide the cushion of time needed for the nanites to become ineffective. It wouldn't be something the victim can do for himself--they'll need to be incapacitated. So treecats with tasers?

tlb wrote:The nanites can live until the subject dies and then they destroyed by the normal decomposition processes. Since we have not seen a case where the nanites activate and the subject survives, how do you extrapolate the highlighted information?

Galactic Sapper wrote:The short window of action before the subject's own nervous system reasserts itself is mentioned explicitly in text. I just don't remember where.

It's one of those narration things that we know but the characters do not. The characters may have deduced something along those lines but they can't be completely confident in that knowledge without having seen it.

Very interesting, I hope someone can pinpoint that information to correct my faulty memory. As Galactic Sapper states there is no reason for anyone in universe to know that, since the point still stands that no one has survived the activation.

Maldorian wrote:3.) Honor has a pulsar in her artifical left arm, but it isn´t public knowledge that she has it. Also, the nanites control biological muscles, for a synthetic device like her arm you would need another tec.

Honor controls the pulsar, nanites controlling her could control it also by hijacking the control system.

However, not only does the alignment need to know about the pulsar but they need to know just how it's controlled to have any hope of using it. The nanites work at the level of motor control, they definitely do not use their hosts' mental abilities to act. Thus "fire pulsar" is not a command that they are able to give.

Hello Bob, and everyone. Thanks for holiday wishes. The same to all.

I wonder whether this situation can put Nimitz and Ariel at odds, one protecting his mate (hence himself), and the other doing the same.

I agree the MA has to know about Honor's finger to use it.

Interesting notions everyone.

Loren Pechtel wrote:

Maldorian wrote:3.) Honor has a pulsar in her artifical left arm, but it isn´t public knowledge that she has it. Also, the nanites control biological muscles, for a synthetic device like her arm you would need another tec.

Honor controls the pulsar, nanites controlling her could control it also by hijacking the control system.

However, not only does the alignment need to know about the pulsar but they need to know just how it's controlled to have any hope of using it. The nanites work at the level of motor control, they definitely do not use their hosts' mental abilities to act. Thus "fire pulsar" is not a command that they are able to give.

Well, they know her special finger exists, see chapter 40 of _At All Costs_ for Isabel Bardasano's after action report to Albrecht.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I would say that the first allegiance of a Treecat is going to be to the person who they are bonded to not a political entity or system. However; a Treecat recognizes people by their mindglow not their physical appearance and is bonded to the psyche of a person, not their carcass. As a result, when the nanites assert themselves, the Treecat is going to know that the affected person is no longer the same person. The nanite controlled person is already effectively dead from the perspective of a Treecat. This might change if an effective cure is developed.

I certainly agree with the allegiance, I mean, come on, self preservation. But should anyone be allowed anywhere near the Queen who doesn't place her welfare first, other than a civilian? Which might ultimately place Nimitz and Ariel at odds -- in such a copper-plated Ransom of a decision.

Consider that either Honor or Beth falling under compulsion would certainly never be suspected or anticipated, and would be totally shocking, catching everyone unaware and knocking either party totally off balance.

At this point, is Nimitz considered a Queen's officer? Surely he's not considered a civilian?

If Beth or Honor falls under compulsion, a Treecat just might not recognize that medically, the person is still inside. And that the Queen of Manticore is worth saving, even at the sacrifice of others.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Treecats have very limited concept of future and non-immediacy. Just look at Honor teaching Nimitz to shoot. They didn't have agriculture before humans started settling on Sphinx. Few animals will hoard food for scarce periods too, though treecats did. So as an effect, the disappearance of the mindglow, however temporary, might be sufficient to break the bond and have the treecat attack the body of the person they adopted.

Interesting thought: would the telemphatic bond prevent nanite activation? Or at least disrupt it?

After thinking a little more, I withdraw this argument.

We know from all the reports of victims of mind control that it's not, in fact, mind control. Rajampet retained his consciousness while his hand moved to pick up his gun and turn on him, long enough for him to realise what was happening and what the Alignment had done to him. The same happened to Yves Grosclaude, the Havenite ambassador to Manticore who aided Giancola and who committed suicide by crashing his aircar. And then there's Honor's perception of the mind of Tim Meares while he was under control: his mind was fighting it.

That leads me to believe the mind and thus the mindglow would not disappear. The bond between the treecat and the person could probably remain.

Though it's also a given there's a darker, sinister action taking place that the treecats and Honor can sense. Similar to the mindglow, but not replacing it(*). That's why treecats can detect the act at all.

(*) actually, I don't remember Honor's exact description after Tim. Need to research the text to confirm this.

I never agreed with that report, except tangentially. If one wants to split hairs, then yes. But, for all intents and purposes, it's mind control.

It's a very interesting concept to consider whether the bond would be broken if half of a bonded pair falls under compulsion. One would also have to wonder if it would paralyze or hinder Nimitz' own thinking process if Honor falls under.

The MA could be hoping for a windfall of something akin to 'One mind, indivisible, without liberty and justice for us all.'

Again, what an interesting concept!

Galactic Sapper wrote:The short window of action before the subject's own nervous system reasserts itself is mentioned explicitly in text. I just don't remember where.

It's one of those narration things that we know but the characters do not. The characters may have deduced something along those lines but they can't be completely confident in that knowledge without having seen it.

Only time I recall the short window being mentioned, is when Honor is explaining to the Andermani prince, and even then she admits up front it's only a theory about it being limited from her father. Who theorized that it does have a maximum duration, that it works on transferred muscle memory (similar to her prothestic arm) and that there's an upper limit to exactly how many movements can be programmed into the nanotech. You can stand in place and just swing your arm to shoot an entire room, or clear a street, but you can't program in the ability to duck & dodge and use any cover ... but they're only (Manticoran) theories and so far the Mesans themselves haven't actually stated ANY actual limitations beyond how difficult it is to find the proper carrier, and acquiring a sample of their blood/DNA and getting it to Mesa (and back) for the programming to be carried out.


Every actual case they can prove, or suspect the nanotech bodycontrol, the threat dies almost immediately.

-Hofschultze was gunned down by other Andermani bodyguards
-Havenite driver gunning down Webster on Earth simply stood in place to get gunned down
-Yves Grosclaude & Rajani both committed direct suicide, driving his aircar into a canyon wall at high speed and shooting his own head.
-we 'think' Crandall also committed suicide, although that may be a Weber standard red herring, since she shot herself in the BACK of the head and nobody else confessed to seeing anything. Possibly a red herring because why were even Solly Navy admirals carrying sidearms? They surrendered in the end, and they surely had to know Manticore would be boarding with battlearmored Marines (afaik hand pulsers aren't upto stopping full battlearmor)

-Tim Meares was a suicide in the same manner of the Havenite driver, he simply stood in place although in fairness, nobody (else) knew about the finger pulser so it's possible if he had succeeded in killing Honor he might have been released, or the compulsion may have ended the full-room gunning with releasing the trigger only long enough to point the armsman pulser into his own skull to ensure Meares died too (we don't know)


I don't remember even the Mesans mentioning if there's a time limit, but based on pretty much all prior (known) usages of the nanotech compulsion, every single time it's been used it's in a way that almost guarantees the compelled victim WILL die. Any further events like the Havenite Driver/Webster or Hofschultze can't take the risk of waiting in the 'hope' the compulsion will end... they might go for a leg shot to knock the 'victim' over and that only assumes the nanotech has no reserve programming that 'if incapacitated, point gun at own head and suicide' which is something I'd be including in the code if at all possible.

Another possibility is the assassin in What Price Dreams. He may have been adjusted but Seeker of Dreams caused him to override his "programming" with large amounts of pain. The same thing could possibly happen with the nano virus too.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:If they got any part of the nanites from her flag lieutenant (Tim Meares?), or even if not, they have probably figured out that the compulsion is very temporary; take the person down without killing them, and the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes.

Galactic Sapper wrote:The short window of action before the subject's own nervous system reasserts itself is mentioned explicitly in text. I just don't remember where.

It's one of those narration things that we know but the characters do not. The characters may have deduced something along those lines but they can't be completely confident in that knowledge without having seen it.

Somtaaw wrote:Only time I recall the short window being mentioned, is when Honor is explaining to the Andermani prince, and even then she admits up front it's only a theory about it being limited from her father. Who theorized that it does have a maximum duration, that it works on transferred muscle memory (similar to her prothestic arm) and that there's an upper limit to exactly how many movements can be programmed into the nanotech. You can stand in place and just swing your arm to shoot an entire room, or clear a street, but you can't program in the ability to duck & dodge and use any cover ... but they're only (Manticoran) theories and so far the Mesans themselves haven't actually stated ANY actual limitations beyond how difficult it is to find the proper carrier, and acquiring a sample of their blood/DNA and getting it to Mesa (and back) for the programming to be carried out.


Every actual case they can prove, or suspect the nanotech bodycontrol, the threat dies almost immediately.

-Hofschultze was gunned down by other Andermani bodyguards
-Havenite driver gunning down Webster on Earth simply stood in place to get gunned down
-Yves Grosclaude & Rajani both committed direct suicide, driving his aircar into a canyon wall at high speed and shooting his own head.
-we 'think' Crandall also committed suicide, although that may be a Weber standard red herring, since she shot herself in the BACK of the head and nobody else confessed to seeing anything. Possibly a red herring because why were even Solly Navy admirals carrying sidearms? They surrendered in the end, and they surely had to know Manticore would be boarding with battlearmored Marines (afaik hand pulsers aren't upto stopping full battlearmor)

-Tim Meares was a suicide in the same manner of the Havenite driver, he simply stood in place although in fairness, nobody (else) knew about the finger pulser so it's possible if he had succeeded in killing Honor he might have been released, or the compulsion may have ended the full-room gunning with releasing the trigger only long enough to point the armsman pulser into his own skull to ensure Meares died too (we don't know)


I don't remember even the Mesans mentioning if there's a time limit, but based on pretty much all prior (known) usages of the nanotech compulsion, every single time it's been used it's in a way that almost guarantees the compelled victim WILL die. Any further events like the Havenite Driver/Webster or Hofschultze can't take the risk of waiting in the 'hope' the compulsion will end... they might go for a leg shot to knock the 'victim' over and that only assumes the nanotech has no reserve programming that 'if incapacitated, point gun at own head and suicide' which is something I'd be including in the code if at all possible.

I think that it is more likely that Crandall is a case of "fragging", especially if her inclination was to continue fighting. There is no evidence of nanites being involved,

The limited extent of the transferred muscle memory is something that I accept, but we have no way of knowing that the subject's mind is ever allowed to regain control. It would be just as easy to end each activation with a fatal heart attack, if the subject had survived to that point.

So there is something else in the original statement for which we have no evidence: "the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes" after activation. Everything I have read states that it is normal decomposition which destroys the nanites.

cthia wrote:Hello Bob, and everyone. Thanks for holiday wishes. The same to all.

I wonder whether this situation can put Nimitz and Ariel at odds, one protecting his mate (hence himself), and the other doing the same.

I agree the MA has to know about Honor's finger to use it.

Interesting notions everyone.

This give a whole, new meaning to the phrase "giving someone the finger."